MGS5: TPP story feel empty because.....

[Deathraven13]

Let me explain why MGS5: TPP feels empty, and I'm not talking about what happen to Venom Snake, we know that, nor mission 51 or chapter 3 it's all about the game we have right now.

So in the timeline MGS3 is before MGS: PW and MGS5: TPP, codec calls in MGS: PW as been restricted to just audio maybe because of the capability of the console it was on, but why we still only have audio in TPP when it's possible to have the old codec back ? Well in metal gear solid 2 people praised Kojima for the story, story wich are in the codec call mostly.

So what changed ? Well this man is the true genius behind the metal gear series, not Kojima:

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Tomokazu_Fukushima

After MGS3: Subsistance, Tomokazu Fukushima is not here anymore, he did the codec/radio of MGS2 and 3 wich is where most of the story is. If you don't believe me then remember where do we explain you the end of MGS2 about the whole mission and what Raiden truly did (video down below to refresh your memory):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKl6WjfDqYA&t=0s

The codec. So what are we missing in PW and TPP ? We got cassettes and cutscenes, along a pityful codec that give you general information even in FOB.

Tomokazu Fukushima was the man that made the story not boring the whole game, but people praised Kojima... Imagine if in MGS2 and 3 instead of codec we had some cassette tapes and a codec that gave general information, would those game be good ? No. Why ? Because the codec allows you to extend the length of the game if you want, you are not forced to see every codec called, but if you want you can, and you'll be occupied since there are more codec calls in MGS2 and 3 than there are cassettes in TPP.

What does the codec do ? It make characters interesting, here we have Kaz and Ocelot on the end of the codec.... and they suck, they just have no personnality, why ? Because you don't interact with them enough, but someone must write those codec calls and make them interesting.

We can see what a bad codec call are in TPP since none of them are intersting, cutscene alone didn't do a good job, even if it's Kojima speciality, when you are about to kill Quiet does it looks like you are about to shot the boss ? No, because you had no idea who Quiet was, and when she left you didn't had enough interaction with her to care, yes Venom snake is not big boss but if there is a romance between Quiet and Venom then it failed miserably, nothing make Quiet enjoyable in the story, hell if she was in Survive or another spin off it would have fit more.

So once again even with Hideo Kojima that people praise like a god, what is good in TPP ? The gameplay, and that's it. What was good when Tomokazu Fukushima was here ? The story.

If you remove codec calls from MGS3 would the story be that good ? No, only the gameplay would be good, without codec all the other characters like Major zero, Sigint and paramedic would feel as useless as Kaz and ocelot in TPP.

If you remove codec calls from MGS2 then seriously you'll lose 90% of the story. Emma and Hal would not argue during the codec call, showing us how they interact before Emma dies in the arms of her brother. If you couldn't call Pliskin/Snake then you wouldn't feel like he is a legend, because he give you some funny tips wich shoes that he is human, but you can see that he as more experience than Raiden thanks to the codec, after all if Snake didn't trusted his instincts during the bomb search the Big Shell could have been destroyed. The whole IA plot is in MGS2 codec so without it the game would feel as empty as TPP.

So what did the codec do in metal gear series ? It connected people to the players, sure a good cutscenes can do that, but too many cutscenes kill the game, a good cutscene would be during the fight against grey Fox in MGS1 on PS1, but if you didn't had some codec call before that fight it would make the character a little confusing, he helps you, yet you fight him.

I could go on but you probably see my point wich is cassette tapes sucks compared to codec calls, people complaign that TPP story is really bad and Kojima is in it, but what the game really needed was the codec calls. Now why we don't have such good codec calls ? Well we are missing the man behind those wich is Tomokazu Fukushima, that's one point, the other being Kojima wanted all missions to feel like a TV show, wich is why you get spoiled at the beginning of the mission wich is dumb, so codec calls like in the old time wouldn't fit here.



So if people don't really like Metal gear after MGS3 while Kojima is still here it's because the real "genius" was not Kojima but Tomokazu Fukushima.

One last exemple to show that Kojima alone is not up to his legend, the first mission in TPP, the hospital wich a lot of people seems to hate since it takes so long for nothing because after that the whole plot is empty in the middle. We had too many cutscenes in that mission and not enough in the rest, no real interactions with the other characters during the whole game, wich I include the battle gear, hell even D-Dog is boring since all you can do is pet him, all the buddy are just like accessories, even I could make a better use of them here check this:
You and D-Dog must find something using D-Dog sense of smell, it's a drug they plan to sell wich contains parasites, it spread via smoke wich increase the odds of those parasite to spread even more, you must find the factory and burn them, unfortunatly it was a trap all along, that information was a fake, it was just regular drug you have burned, ennemies approach your position and one sniper is about to shoot Venom, D-Dog jumped on you and took the bullet, Venom shoot the sniper with a non lethal weapon, now you must carry D-Dog on your back to safety while avoiding choppers and ennemies, Venom use some pieces of clothes nearby to try to stabilize D-Dog and to carry him without shaking him too much, but you let your primary and secondary weapon behind along all your other items just to not be too slow, so you have a pistol and you are on an invisible time limit, hearing D-Dog quietly whispering in pain, you must get past ennemies and if D-Dog dies it will trigger a cutscene in 2 case:
- If D-Dog is shot by ennemies, you stop and surrender, because you can't fight nor run with him dead on your back and only armed with a pistol.
- If D-Dog die because you took too long when you put him inside the chopper and check his status..... he will be dead, with Venom being sad since he failed miserably to save one of his buddy.

Add 2-3 special mission like that for each buddy and you'll feel closer to your buddies, wich for now have no real impact on the story.

So do you agree ? You don't agree ? Tell us what you think.

Bonus: Someone have an idea to what happened to Tomokazu Fukushima ? I got no answer and only find this on reddit wich as some good point on what I've said above:
https://www.reddit.com/r/metalgearsolid/comments/3nx8ls/okay_im_just_going_to_ask_it_where_is_tomokazu/

[Holografix]

Deathraven13님이 먼저 게시:

Holografix님이 먼저 게시:

ok i read the wiki...good information.

Mei Ling created the Codec and Sigint created the PATRIOT AI but Zero masterminded the whole project. That much I know. Without Zero there is no Cipher. The answer and info I offer is based on my understanding of the lore in Metal Gear. I don't go outside the games for explanations like missing Konami staff, loss of money, etc...

I understand that the missing radio dialogue in TPP makes you feel the game is empty. But my question is, Who is Venom going to talk to if the whole story is based on an airborne infection passed through language? And even after Venom finds the inoculation to the virus, who is he going to chat with? The game's story is told through a flashback using the broken mind & memories of Venom Snake to create the "facts" of the story...What is the point of dialogue if it's all based on a hazy memory?

MGS5: TPP is not based on Venom Snake flashback, and Miller and Ocelot still talk even after they know about the virus, so they could have used a radio/codec before they know about that, also since Ocelot did not die from that virus along Miller I believe CODE TALKER cure it by using a certain plant If I remember right hence why none of them died of it. Ocelot and Miller could have talked about what happened while you were in a coma, what happened to Kaz when he as been captured, old mother base soldiers could have explained what they did after MB event, Huey could have explained a little more what he did after he as been captured by Skull face, there is so much conversation that could have been added, DD soldiers have some line but to be honest everyone as a few dialogue when they could have a lot more interesting dialogue, they could even had some special diamond dogs that would have been part of the story, for exemple a soldier under Ocelot command who wants to be like him, a DD soldier that wants to be your rival because you are big boss ( even if it's not true).

So since we have almost no interactions with most characters it makes the game empty as hell story wise, even Chico as more lines in PW than Venom Snake, Kaz or Ocelot. At least you learn about him. Ocelot could have wanted a rematch against you even if you are not really Big Boss, just to test the CQC Big Boss taught you.

TPP begins in front of a mirror (1st scene of game) and ends in front of a mirror (Truth mission). One interpretation of TPP is that Venom is remembering the events of 1984. That's why there are no facts, only interpretations. The game unfolds like a puzzle of memory. That's why the tapes exist. They are the remnants of the events of 1984.

By the time the game begins, everything has already happened: Huey is gone, Quiet is gone, and Sahelanthropus is gone. All that is left are the tapes.

Codetalker cures the vocal cord parasite with wolbachia which makes all the Diamond Dogs infertile. Kaz and Ocelot dislike each other. They wouldn't have talked to each other. And anyway, the Codec calls are always Snake + someone else so it wouldn't be Ocelot + Kaz. Quiet doesn't talk, so no dialogue there.

TPP is about isolation, alienation and how Big Boss uses you for his own ends. The emptiness is a result of the themes of the game.

[Deathraven13]

Holografix님이 먼저 게시:

Deathraven13님이 먼저 게시:

MGS5: TPP is not based on Venom Snake flashback, and Miller and Ocelot still talk even after they know about the virus, so they could have used a radio/codec before they know about that, also since Ocelot did not die from that virus along Miller I believe CODE TALKER cure it by using a certain plant If I remember right hence why none of them died of it. Ocelot and Miller could have talked about what happened while you were in a coma, what happened to Kaz when he as been captured, old mother base soldiers could have explained what they did after MB event, Huey could have explained a little more what he did after he as been captured by Skull face, there is so much conversation that could have been added, DD soldiers have some line but to be honest everyone as a few dialogue when they could have a lot more interesting dialogue, they could even had some special diamond dogs that would have been part of the story, for exemple a soldier under Ocelot command who wants to be like him, a DD soldier that wants to be your rival because you are big boss ( even if it's not true).

So since we have almost no interactions with most characters it makes the game empty as hell story wise, even Chico as more lines in PW than Venom Snake, Kaz or Ocelot. At least you learn about him. Ocelot could have wanted a rematch against you even if you are not really Big Boss, just to test the CQC Big Boss taught you.

TPP begins in front of a mirror (1st scene of game) and ends in front of a mirror (Truth mission). Venom is remembering the events of 1984. That's why there are no facts, only interpretations. The game unfolds like a puzzle of memory. That's why the tapes exist. They are the remnants of the events of 1984.

By the time the game begins, everything has already happened: Huey is gone, Quiet is gone, and Sahelanthropus is gone. All that is left are the tapes.

Codetalker cures the vocal cord parasite with wolbachia which makes all the Diamond Dogs infertile. Kaz and Ocelot dislike each other. They wouldn't have talked to each other. And anyway, the Codec calls are always Snake + someone else so it wouldn't be Ocelot + Kaz. Quiet doesn't talk, so no dialogue there.

TPP is about isolation, alienation and how Big Boss uses you for his own ends.

If it's a recreation it still make no sense why you can't use the codec, because you can finish the game and still miss some cassette tapes, also the whole online part would make no sense since FOB and SP soldiers are tied to MB, otherwise we should have an SP outside of online, like for MGO3. Same thing for nuclear disarmement cutscene since now we have a memorial after 3 real years on the command platform.

I said Miller and Ocelot should talk to you more via codec/radio, not having them talk to each other.

One more thing, if it's a recreation then why can your horn grow ? If you can become Demon Snake or Venom Snake at will it's not a recreation then, and if you can use phantom cigar to pass time when it's a recreation then it doesn't really make sense. I see too many wormholes in that theory.

With what I've said I don't believe that the story can justify the lack of characters installement, especially with the chapter part when Kojima said he wanted every mission to feel like a TV series, because in books you usually have chapters, when in series you usually have seasons. So it makes no sense, even if having only 2 chapters makes no sense.

Also if it's a recreation why do we replay some mission that are on the main mission list ? He went back in time to do existence, total stealth and subsistance mission, yet they are no in side ops mission list wich most of them can be done again.

[Holografix]

Deathraven13님이 먼저 게시:

If it's a recreation it still make no sense why you can't use the codec, because you can finish the game and still miss some cassette tapes, also the whole online part would make no sense since FOB and SP soldiers are tied to MB, otherwise we should have an SP outside of online, like for MGO3. Same thing for nuclear disarmement cutscene since now we have a memorial after 3 real years on the command platform.

I said Miller and Ocelot should talk to you more via codec/radio, not having them talk to each other.

One more thing, if it's a recreation then why can your horn grow ? If you can become Demon Snake or Venom Snake at will it's not a recreation then, and if you can use phantom cigar to pass time when it's a recreation then it doesn't really make sense. I see too many wormholes in that theory.

With what I've said I don't believe that the story can justify the lack of characters installement, especially with the chapter part when Kojima said he wanted every mission to feel like a TV series, because in books you usually have chapters, when in series you usually have seasons. So it makes no sense, even if having only 2 chapters makes no sense.

Also if it's a recreation why do we replay some mission that are on the main mission list ? He went back in time to do existence, total stealth and subsistance mission, yet they are no in side ops mission list wich most of them can be done again.

I don't understand what you mean by 'recreation.' Do you mean like in Ground Zeroes where you do the mission with the Eye and the Finger and it is a Pseudo Historical recreation?

TPP is not Pseudo Historical. The incident happened. Motherbase was destroyed, there was a Big Boss Phantom, and Skullface was killed. But what is unique about TPP are the little details, like the names and words.

In TPP, your PMC is called Diamond Dogs but after the Truth Mission it is Outer Heaven. So the name of your PMC is changed. And since the names and words change, Venom changes too. Does he know that he is a bad guy? Does he know that he is Oni, a demon?

You mentioned before that TPP is unrealistic because Venom can run forever, regenerate health and seem invincible. Well, TPP is about the legend of Big Boss. That is his legend. He is a legendary soldier and no matter the challenge (extreme, subsistence, total stealth) he can complete any mission in every way possible.

Another point is that the events of TPP are set into motion by Zero himself. Venom is his plan. So the slow awakening of Venom into what he is, is part of the story. Venom learns that the Truth of a Legend is wholly interpretation. Venom is supposed to create the decoy PMC. What is real about creating a fake Outer Heaven? Or for that matter, what is real about creating a phantom Big Boss?

Maybe the emptiness you feel is from your hollow and meaningless mission as Venom Snake.

[Deathraven13]

"One interpretation of TPP is that Venom is remembering the events of 1984" that's what I meant with recreation, like TPP main mission recreate Venom memories.

Holografix님이 먼저 게시:

You mentioned before that TPP is unrealistic because Venom can run forever, regenerate health and seem invincible. Well, TPP is about the legend of Big Boss. That is his legend. He is a legendary soldier and no matter the challenge (extreme, subsistence, total stealth) he can complete any mission in every way possible.

And yet there is no codec call like MGS3. I get it that since you are the decoy the main mission is empty since at some point solid snake kill you, so the end should no be here, but if you must act like Big Boss then you are not the silent type that barely speak, sure Kaz is the one making long speeches but Big Boss can speak, he share some events with his soldiers, he train with them, that's why his man respect him, because he is a human like them, a soldier, but he can achieve great things, he wanted to create a nation on his own, here it's like you have one mission with Diamond dogs and that's it enjoy your relation with your soldiers, in fact he act more like Grey Fox .

[Holografix]

Deathraven13님이 먼저 게시:

"One interpretation of TPP is that Venom is remembering the events of 1984" that's what I meant with recreation, like TPP main mission recreate Venom memories.

Holografix님이 먼저 게시:

You mentioned before that TPP is unrealistic because Venom can run forever, regenerate health and seem invincible. Well, TPP is about the legend of Big Boss. That is his legend. He is a legendary soldier and no matter the challenge (extreme, subsistence, total stealth) he can complete any mission in every way possible.

And yet there is no codec call like MGS3. I get it that since you are the decoy the main mission is empty since at some point solid snake kill you, so the end should no be here, but if you must act like Big Boss then you are not the silent type that barely speak, sure Kaz is the one making long speeches but Big Boss can speak, he share some events with his soldiers, he train with them, that's why his man respect him, because he is a human like them, a soldier, but he can achieve great things, he wanted to create a nation on his own, here it's like you have one mission with Diamond dogs and that's it enjoy your relation with your soldiers, in fact he act more like Grey Fox .

You must act like Big Boss. But you are not Naked. You are Venom, a man implanted with the memories of Naked Snake through hypnogogia. His soliders are mercs, first brainwashed then paid to stay at Motherbase. Their loyalty is dependant on GMP. The men/women resepect him sure, but if you visit Motherbase and you are killing on Missions or a demon the soldier conversations will reflect their fears about you or their admiration.

Venom is not like a regular character that can have long dialogues with another character. If the game is like a recreation, then Venom is always at the center of the story. If you remember your memories do you ever remember long dialogues? Or is it more like sense-impressions of the event?

This is one of my favorite reviews and discussion of the game. It is an excellent review of The Phantom Pain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4fjtS_Etvk
* Grey Fox? LOL

[Jin Yoichi]

this entire thread is empty...

[drtekrox]

https://youtu.be/Y4XY26P4z_E
Remember this? Remember how polished and awesome the game looked?


Now remember how TPP has none of this.

[Deathraven13]

drtekrox님이 먼저 게시:

https://youtu.be/Y4XY26P4z_E
Remember this? Remember how polished and awesome the game looked?


Now remember how TPP has none of this.

MGS5:GZ was the bait, everyone expected the game to be like this because it's a prologue, then it turned into a mediocre MGS: PW2, a bait that at launch cost 30$ , even the bonus mission where a bait since they had a normal and a hard mode.

[Misa]

drtekrox님이 먼저 게시:

https://youtu.be/Y4XY26P4z_E
Remember this? Remember how polished and awesome the game looked?


Now remember how TPP has none of this.

Yea I though wow Ground zeros was a rip off but then looking back GZ felt more like a quality MGS game than the Phantom Game which was good for the first hour of cutscenes (enough so that you can't refund the game on steam) LOL They played us like a damn FIDDLE

[Misa]

Metal Gear Survive is pretty fun..

out of

[Deathraven13]

Deadly_Diva님이 먼저 게시:

Metal Gear Survive is pretty fun..

:_7_: out of :_1_: :_Zero_:

Have you pre-ordered the game ?

[[ACPL] Jon]

Deadly_Diva님이 먼저 게시:

Metal Gear Survive is pretty fun..

:_7_: out of :_1_: :_Zero_:

ARE YOU ♥♥♥♥♥♥' KIDDING ME?

Don't need any more proof you're just a troll and a hater. MGSurvive IS badly executed.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/ACPL_Jon/recommended/797470

Anyway, this thread seems to be over as it's now just a club for people senslessly bashing Kojima \ MGSV for their grief over what KONAMI, not Kojima, took from us. Have fun.

[Misa]

ACPL Jon님이 먼저 게시:

Deadly_Diva님이 먼저 게시:

Metal Gear Survive is pretty fun..

out of

ARE YOU ♥♥♥♥♥♥' KIDDING ME?

Don't need any more proof you're just a troll and a hater. MGSurvive IS badly executed.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/ACPL_Jon/recommended/797470

Anyway, this thread seems to be over as it's now just a club for people senslessly bashing Kojima \ MGSV for their grief over what KONAMI, not Kojima, took from us. Have fun.

So when people give out their opinions that you disagree with then they are trolling? You're the troll

[tyrone shoelaces]

ACPL Jon님이 먼저 게시:

it's now just a club for people senslessly bashing Kojima \ MGSV for their grief over what KONAMI, not Kojima, took from us. Have fun.

[Deathraven13]

ACPL Jon님이 먼저 게시:

Deadly_Diva님이 먼저 게시:

Metal Gear Survive is pretty fun..

:_7_: out of :_1_: :_Zero_:

ARE YOU ♥♥♥♥♥♥' KIDDING ME?

Don't need any more proof you're just a troll and a hater. MGSurvive IS badly executed.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/ACPL_Jon/recommended/797470

Anyway, this thread seems to be over as it's now just a club for people senslessly bashing Kojima \ MGSV for their grief over what KONAMI, not Kojima, took from us. Have fun.

MG Survive is great IMO, in fact even if the control confused me at first I can honestly say that Survive as better control than TPP, because it takes time to select an item and to use it, like in Survive I can select a grenade and have a weapon ready, so I press E and bam throw the grenade then shoot/attack. I can run and climb then dive with only two button instead of 3 in TPP.

The gameplay is so great, I like to use handguns, here in survive they don't feel useless like in TPP, now weapons are something precious and every shot should count, no more going COD like. You have to manage yourself and manage your gear while TPP did it for you, forgot to craft bullets for your weapons and you went on a mission ? Bad choice mah boy. So overall I love the coop part even If I'll prefer to have the solo part connected to it. Yeah I love Survive..

So if you want to bash it join the Kojima fanboys in Survive forum and spread your hate for the game, it won't stop people from enjoy it and you'll waste your time, but it's your time, so go do that or stay on topic here wich is about why MGS5: TPP story feels empty, and yes we talk about Kojami because he is the one being praised for MGS story and he as a high role on this one, so if you believe that Kojima is perfect and no one should say that is story in TPP is bad then don't read my topics.

To get back to topic I find it really strange that after Tomokazu Fukushima left Metal gear story started to decline quite a lot, and I find it funnier that 3 people helped Kojima writte TPP story when there is not that much story.