MGS5: TPP story feel empty because.....

[Deathraven13]

Let me explain why MGS5: TPP feels empty, and I'm not talking about what happen to Venom Snake, we know that, nor mission 51 or chapter 3 it's all about the game we have right now.

So in the timeline MGS3 is before MGS: PW and MGS5: TPP, codec calls in MGS: PW as been restricted to just audio maybe because of the capability of the console it was on, but why we still only have audio in TPP when it's possible to have the old codec back ? Well in metal gear solid 2 people praised Kojima for the story, story wich are in the codec call mostly.

So what changed ? Well this man is the true genius behind the metal gear series, not Kojima:

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Tomokazu_Fukushima

After MGS3: Subsistance, Tomokazu Fukushima is not here anymore, he did the codec/radio of MGS2 and 3 wich is where most of the story is. If you don't believe me then remember where do we explain you the end of MGS2 about the whole mission and what Raiden truly did (video down below to refresh your memory):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKl6WjfDqYA&t=0s

The codec. So what are we missing in PW and TPP ? We got cassettes and cutscenes, along a pityful codec that give you general information even in FOB.

Tomokazu Fukushima was the man that made the story not boring the whole game, but people praised Kojima... Imagine if in MGS2 and 3 instead of codec we had some cassette tapes and a codec that gave general information, would those game be good ? No. Why ? Because the codec allows you to extend the length of the game if you want, you are not forced to see every codec called, but if you want you can, and you'll be occupied since there are more codec calls in MGS2 and 3 than there are cassettes in TPP.

What does the codec do ? It make characters interesting, here we have Kaz and Ocelot on the end of the codec.... and they suck, they just have no personnality, why ? Because you don't interact with them enough, but someone must write those codec calls and make them interesting.

We can see what a bad codec call are in TPP since none of them are intersting, cutscene alone didn't do a good job, even if it's Kojima speciality, when you are about to kill Quiet does it looks like you are about to shot the boss ? No, because you had no idea who Quiet was, and when she left you didn't had enough interaction with her to care, yes Venom snake is not big boss but if there is a romance between Quiet and Venom then it failed miserably, nothing make Quiet enjoyable in the story, hell if she was in Survive or another spin off it would have fit more.

So once again even with Hideo Kojima that people praise like a god, what is good in TPP ? The gameplay, and that's it. What was good when Tomokazu Fukushima was here ? The story.

If you remove codec calls from MGS3 would the story be that good ? No, only the gameplay would be good, without codec all the other characters like Major zero, Sigint and paramedic would feel as useless as Kaz and ocelot in TPP.

If you remove codec calls from MGS2 then seriously you'll lose 90% of the story. Emma and Hal would not argue during the codec call, showing us how they interact before Emma dies in the arms of her brother. If you couldn't call Pliskin/Snake then you wouldn't feel like he is a legend, because he give you some funny tips wich shoes that he is human, but you can see that he as more experience than Raiden thanks to the codec, after all if Snake didn't trusted his instincts during the bomb search the Big Shell could have been destroyed. The whole IA plot is in MGS2 codec so without it the game would feel as empty as TPP.

So what did the codec do in metal gear series ? It connected people to the players, sure a good cutscenes can do that, but too many cutscenes kill the game, a good cutscene would be during the fight against grey Fox in MGS1 on PS1, but if you didn't had some codec call before that fight it would make the character a little confusing, he helps you, yet you fight him.

I could go on but you probably see my point wich is cassette tapes sucks compared to codec calls, people complaign that TPP story is really bad and Kojima is in it, but what the game really needed was the codec calls. Now why we don't have such good codec calls ? Well we are missing the man behind those wich is Tomokazu Fukushima, that's one point, the other being Kojima wanted all missions to feel like a TV show, wich is why you get spoiled at the beginning of the mission wich is dumb, so codec calls like in the old time wouldn't fit here.



So if people don't really like Metal gear after MGS3 while Kojima is still here it's because the real "genius" was not Kojima but Tomokazu Fukushima.

One last exemple to show that Kojima alone is not up to his legend, the first mission in TPP, the hospital wich a lot of people seems to hate since it takes so long for nothing because after that the whole plot is empty in the middle. We had too many cutscenes in that mission and not enough in the rest, no real interactions with the other characters during the whole game, wich I include the battle gear, hell even D-Dog is boring since all you can do is pet him, all the buddy are just like accessories, even I could make a better use of them here check this:
You and D-Dog must find something using D-Dog sense of smell, it's a drug they plan to sell wich contains parasites, it spread via smoke wich increase the odds of those parasite to spread even more, you must find the factory and burn them, unfortunatly it was a trap all along, that information was a fake, it was just regular drug you have burned, ennemies approach your position and one sniper is about to shoot Venom, D-Dog jumped on you and took the bullet, Venom shoot the sniper with a non lethal weapon, now you must carry D-Dog on your back to safety while avoiding choppers and ennemies, Venom use some pieces of clothes nearby to try to stabilize D-Dog and to carry him without shaking him too much, but you let your primary and secondary weapon behind along all your other items just to not be too slow, so you have a pistol and you are on an invisible time limit, hearing D-Dog quietly whispering in pain, you must get past ennemies and if D-Dog dies it will trigger a cutscene in 2 case:
- If D-Dog is shot by ennemies, you stop and surrender, because you can't fight nor run with him dead on your back and only armed with a pistol.
- If D-Dog die because you took too long when you put him inside the chopper and check his status..... he will be dead, with Venom being sad since he failed miserably to save one of his buddy.

Add 2-3 special mission like that for each buddy and you'll feel closer to your buddies, wich for now have no real impact on the story.

So do you agree ? You don't agree ? Tell us what you think.

Bonus: Someone have an idea to what happened to Tomokazu Fukushima ? I got no answer and only find this on reddit wich as some good point on what I've said above:
https://www.reddit.com/r/metalgearsolid/comments/3nx8ls/okay_im_just_going_to_ask_it_where_is_tomokazu/

[JuiceySpice]

Yea the codec conversations gave life to the games, Cassetes are alright, but they didn’t have the same effect,

Codec conversation being toned down to just general tips, and the fact that a lot of voices become overused(snake it’s and enemy gunship, snake get down it’s an enemy sniper) is disappointing

I like your idea of a buddy survival mission as it develops their character and bond as well as implements gameplay restriction with a reason unlike just randomly putting subsistence or total stealth on mission

On that note I wish you could apply total stealth, subsistence, and extreme onto any mission. They would be toggable options unlocked later in the game that you apply on the mission screen. You could toggle one, two, or if you are mad, all of them

[[ACPL] Jon]

I don't think I understand. How does "codec call" gives more character to them? How much "more" character do you need? Maybe my memory acts up, but what are the difference from Casetttes? You could've choose dialogue options? I don't remember that from MGS1 nor MGS3.

While you somewhat raise valid points (esp. that it's not "just" Kojima which made MGS great), but overally I disagree. IMO story doesn't feel empty, just like a normal person without a hand doesn't seem empty. It just, much like the person, is missing some substantial stuff to feel complete. Humans can make up with their personality, game - pretty much the same.

Thing I like about casettes way more is the fact I could've listened to them on the move, much like with music. I could've strangled someone or throw a dead guard body into his college while listening both to Billy Joel or Ocelot. I can go on a hike, admire the scenery, listen to crickets. I'd go nuts if I'd have to sit in a small dark pit to listen to stuff, much like I remember it from MGS1&3.

Also remember MGSV doesn't bear "1" or "2" in it's name. By now, you should know enough about Ocelot or Miller. You don't? Well, there's few more games to get to know them better.

MGSV feels empty because half of the Chapter 2 is missing and because the Eli ending is missing, along with the island and few things you can *feel* that are missing - like Battle Gear.

Not because of the story, in my opinion. It kinda surprised me how complete it feels considering how much is missiing. And I gotta say I like "theathrics" of the Casette talks.

IMO actors did very good job.

[[ACPL] Jon]

Originally posted by Spooky From Hell:

On that note I wish you could apply total stealth, subsistence, and extreme onto any mission. They would be toggable options unlocked later in the game that you apply on the mission screen. You could toggle one, two, or if you are mad, all of them

See? That's what I was talking about. Pretty much GZ itself confirms it - these were supposed to be able to be applied to most \ all missions.

And modders have proven it's pretty much feasible.

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by ACPL Jon:

I don't think I understand. How does "codec call" gives more character to them? How much "more" character do you need? Maybe my memory acts up, but what are the difference from Casetttes? You could've choose dialogue options? I don't remember that from MGS1 nor MGS3.

While you somewhat raise valid points (esp. that it's not "just" Kojima which made MGS great), but overally I disagree. IMO story doesn't feel empty, just like a normal person without a hand doesn't seem empty. It just, much like the person, is missing some substantial stuff to feel complete. Humans can make up with their personality, game - pretty much the same.

Thing I like about casettes way more is the fact I could've listened to them on the move, much like with music. I could've strangled someone or throw a dead guard body into his college while listening both to Billy Joel or Ocelot. I can go on a hike, admire the scenery, listen to crickets. I'd go nuts if I'd have to sit in a small dark pit to listen to stuff, much like I remember it from MGS1&3.

Also remember MGSV doesn't bear "1" or "2" in it's name. By now, you should know enough about Ocelot or Miller. You don't? Well, there's few more games to get to know them better.

MGSV feels empty because half of the Chapter 2 is missing and because the Eli ending is missing, along with the island and few things you can *feel* that are missing - like Battle Gear.

Not because of the story, in my opinion. It kinda surprised me how complete it feels considering how much is missiing. And I gotta say I like "theathrics" of the Casette talks.

IMO actors did very good job.

The thing is even if you know about Kaz and Ocelot, Kaz have changed after what happened (MB staff says it), and If I remember right it's the first time you could talk to Ocelot via radio/codec. So of course it's hard to bring interesting codec conversation but that would make everyone a lot less empty, like you could call Code Talker and he'll talk about various things like the plants, some part of his life and more, Kaz would speak about how he feels now, his view on diamond dogs, the incident about the quarrantine, here they are most likely useless and empty, you never see CODE TALKER again I think, you never see Quiet and you had too few moment spent with her to feel attached by her, overall cassette allows you to listen again what they say but it somewhat remove replayability.

When you look at it the way Kojima planned the game was not that good, codec calls would not have been that good but if we had codec call in mission without just generic info you could just replay a mission and use the codec. Since we have an 'open world' it just feels empty, imagine playing MGS2 or 3 without no codec call the first time, that would feel too empty and that's the problem here.

Originally posted by Spooky From Hell:

Yea the codec conversations gave life to the games, Cassetes are alright, but they didn’t have the same effect,

Codec conversation being toned down to just general tips, and the fact that a lot of voices become overused(snake it’s and enemy gunship, snake get down it’s an enemy sniper) is disappointing

I like your idea of a buddy survival mission as it develops their character and bond as well as implements gameplay restriction with a reason unlike just randomly putting subsistence or total stealth on mission

On that note I wish you could apply total stealth, subsistence, and extreme onto any mission. They would be toggable options unlocked later in the game that you apply on the mission screen. You could toggle one, two, or if you are mad, all of them

Well if you like the mission I've said and I'm no god then someone else could replace Kojima, I have some very interesting ideas and a lot of imagination hence why I still manage to find glitches in FOB and challenge myself against player, for applying existence and total stealth I think the mod "Infinite heaven" allows you to do that, but I've never tested it because I don't like mods (except in XCOM 1 & 2).

What we needed was something most metal gear games had: A difficulty setting. The game is too easy unfortunatly :/

[GeekDoctor]

Greetings My Idol,

You're sounding more like GeekDoctor with all that long analysis.

Thank You

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by 中国人 Invincible Dragon:

Greetings My Idol,

You're sounding more like GeekDoctor with all that long analysis.

Thank You

I see nothing wrong with "analysis", I'm just gaving my opinion on why TPP feels empty, it as always bothered me and now I understand why, in the end the "genius" or "god" was not Kojima, it was Tomokazu Fukushima, now I have even more hope and I'm even more hyped about surviving knowing that Kojima was just good with cutscenes, if Survive as a good writter the story can be better than TPP.

[GeekDoctor]

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Originally posted by 中国人 Invincible Dragon:

Greetings My Idol,

You're sounding more like GeekDoctor with all that long analysis.

Thank You

I see nothing wrong with "analysis", I'm just gaving my opinion on why TPP feels empty, it as always bothered me and now I understand why, in the end the "genius" or "god" was not Kojima, it was Tomokazu Fukushima, now I have even more hope and I'm even more hyped about surviving knowing that Kojima was just good with cutscenes, if Survive as a good writter the story can be better than TPP.

Greetings Sir,

I didn't mean it in a negative way.

But yeah you remind me of Geek Lol.

Thank You

[Jin Yoichi]

i think the game is great and still play it upto date...

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by 中国人 Invincible Dragon:

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

I see nothing wrong with "analysis", I'm just gaving my opinion on why TPP feels empty, it as always bothered me and now I understand why, in the end the "genius" or "god" was not Kojima, it was Tomokazu Fukushima, now I have even more hope and I'm even more hyped about surviving knowing that Kojima was just good with cutscenes, if Survive as a good writter the story can be better than TPP.

Greetings Sir,

I didn't mean it in a negative way.

But yeah you remind me of Geek Lol.

Thank You

Don't you hate geekDoc tho ? So It seemed like you insulted me ^^

Originally posted by ☣ Khatar ☣:

i think the game is great and still play it upto date...

This topic is not about how the game suck, it's about how SP felt empty, FOB and the gameplay is great, and now I see why it's empty so if people was wondering they may agree with me or not then explain why they think I'm wrong.

I still play FOB but not SP, there is nothing more to do once you complete it, unlike MGS2 and MGS3 wich had some replayability along a difficulty setting wich I miss, goodbye extreme and European extreme difficulty :/

[Gexrdy]

I think the Game is great, no question, was near the tears when quiet jumps in the gas, if you can remember, to get amulet for the lil child soldier and other moments that just catched me. BUT THE STORY IS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ EMPTY. Even the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hilarious story with two big bosses were a pain in the ass for me. If you think im too triggered, i finished the game yesterday. (the truth hospital mission). And then i looked up cus i was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ confused, i mean eli was just away and you never talked about it again in the game. Then suddenly i read theres a missing episode 51 in the collectors edition. we will never see it. cus kojima and konami broke up. im ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ triggered.

sorry for language and wrong writing, im tired and german.

[GeekDoctor]

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Originally posted by 中国人 Invincible Dragon:

Greetings Sir,

I didn't mean it in a negative way.

But yeah you remind me of Geek Lol.

Thank You

Don't you hate geekDoc tho ? So It seemed like you insulted me ^^

Originally posted by ☣ Khatar ☣:

i think the game is great and still play it upto date...

This topic is not about how the game suck, it's about how SP felt empty, FOB and the gameplay is great, and now I see why it's empty so if people was wondering they may agree with me or not then explain why they think I'm wrong.

I still play FOB but not SP, there is nothing more to do once you complete it, unlike MGS2 and MGS3 wich had some replayability along a difficulty setting wich I miss, goodbye extreme and European extreme difficulty :/

Greetings,

What???!!!! No LOL. We're friends and Allies. Very nice bloke to converse with.

But you're still my No.1 idol, zam.

Thank You

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by AlphAχ™҂:

I think the Game is great, no question, was near the tears when quiet jumps in the gas, if you can remember, to get amulet for the lil child soldier and other moments that just catched me. BUT THE STORY IS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ EMPTY. Even the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hilarious story with two big bosses were a pain in the ass for me. If you think im too triggered, i finished the game yesterday. (the truth hospital mission). And then i looked up cus i was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ confused, i mean eli was just away and you never talked about it again in the game. Then suddenly i read theres a missing episode 51 in the collectors edition. we will never see it. cus kojima and konami broke up. im ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ triggered.

sorry for language and wrong writing, im tired and german.

It's alright, I think we all have reacted like that the first time. Like "Wait that's it ? 2 chapter ? Where is the rest ?" but nope that's it.

MGS5 had some moments but to be honest it won't be as memorable as MGS 1 2 & 3.

[Gexrdy]

I just dont want to play it anymore it dont feel good anymore :C

[Soniti254]

So basically OP suggests that the reason why MGSV's story feels empty is because of the codec calls, or lack thereof. I disagree; the lack of codec calls is not the reason why MGSV feels empty.

Originally posted by ACPL Jon:

I don't think I understand. How does "codec call" gives more character to them? How much "more" character do you need? Maybe my memory acts up, but what are the difference from Casetttes? You could've choose dialogue options? I don't remember that from MGS1 nor MGS3.

While you somewhat raise valid points (esp. that it's not "just" Kojima which made MGS great), but overally I disagree. IMO story doesn't feel empty, just like a normal person without a hand doesn't seem empty. It just, much like the person, is missing some substantial stuff to feel complete. Humans can make up with their personality, game - pretty much the same.

Thing I like about casettes way more is the fact I could've listened to them on the move, much like with music. I could've strangled someone or throw a dead guard body into his college while listening both to Billy Joel or Ocelot. I can go on a hike, admire the scenery, listen to crickets. I'd go nuts if I'd have to sit in a small dark pit to listen to stuff, much like I remember it from MGS1&3.

Also remember MGSV doesn't bear "1" or "2" in it's name. By now, you should know enough about Ocelot or Miller. You don't? Well, there's few more games to get to know them better.

MGSV feels empty because half of the Chapter 2 is missing and because the Eli ending is missing, along with the island and few things you can *feel* that are missing - like Battle Gear.

Not because of the story, in my opinion. It kinda surprised me how complete it feels considering how much is missiing. And I gotta say I like "theathrics" of the Casette talks.

IMO actors did very good job.

This is the real reason why MGSV feels empty. The cassette tapes in this game (and Peace Walker too which people seem to convienantly forget orginate from that game) are basically the same thing as codec calls from the previous games; the only real difference is that, unlike the codec, you can listen to the cassette tapes whenever you want and as many times as you want. With the codec, unless you were constantly calling on the codec, it was entirely possible to skip over codec calls that, while not crucial to the story of the games in any real way, added some cool details to the characters and such.

The overall story and narrative in MGSV are fine; it feels empty because so much of chapter 2 is missing and one of the game's main subplots, the Eli subplot, never gets properly concluded, amongst other things. Even if they threw in codec calls into this game, it wouldn't have changed much regarding how "empty" the game feels.

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by Soniti254:

So basically OP suggests that the reason why MGSV's story feels empty is because of the codec calls, or lack thereof. I disagree; the lack of codec calls is not the reason why MGSV feels empty.

Originally posted by ACPL Jon:

I don't think I understand. How does "codec call" gives more character to them? How much "more" character do you need? Maybe my memory acts up, but what are the difference from Casetttes? You could've choose dialogue options? I don't remember that from MGS1 nor MGS3.

While you somewhat raise valid points (esp. that it's not "just" Kojima which made MGS great), but overally I disagree. IMO story doesn't feel empty, just like a normal person without a hand doesn't seem empty. It just, much like the person, is missing some substantial stuff to feel complete. Humans can make up with their personality, game - pretty much the same.

Thing I like about casettes way more is the fact I could've listened to them on the move, much like with music. I could've strangled someone or throw a dead guard body into his college while listening both to Billy Joel or Ocelot. I can go on a hike, admire the scenery, listen to crickets. I'd go nuts if I'd have to sit in a small dark pit to listen to stuff, much like I remember it from MGS1&3.

Also remember MGSV doesn't bear "1" or "2" in it's name. By now, you should know enough about Ocelot or Miller. You don't? Well, there's few more games to get to know them better.

MGSV feels empty because half of the Chapter 2 is missing and because the Eli ending is missing, along with the island and few things you can *feel* that are missing - like Battle Gear.

Not because of the story, in my opinion. It kinda surprised me how complete it feels considering how much is missiing. And I gotta say I like "theathrics" of the Casette talks.

IMO actors did very good job.

This is the real reason why MGSV feels empty. The cassette tapes in this game (and Peace Walker too which people seem to convienantly forget orginate from that game) are basically the same thing as codec calls from the previous games; the only real difference is that, unlike the codec, you can listen to the cassette tapes whenever you want and as many times as you want. With the codec, unless you were constantly calling on the codec, it was entirely possible to skip over codec calls that, while not crucial to the story of the games in any real way, added some cool details to the characters and such.

The overall story and narrative in MGSV are fine; it feels empty because so much of chapter 2 is missing and one of the game's main subplots, the Eli subplot, never gets properly concluded, amongst other things. Even if they threw in codec calls into this game, it wouldn't have changed much regarding how "empty" the game feels.

If you compare cassette tapes to codec call then know that all the cassette tapes with conversation last far less longer than all the codec call in MGS1 2 or 3. Also you could always replay one of them increasing the difficulty level and try to call people everytime to know what they say, or check a youtube video, here it's pointless to replay the game so cassettes fit perfectly here even if they are really boring compared to codec call wich would have made the game less empty.

I've said that MGS:PW cassettes where probably used because it's on PSP, so maybe they had to do that.

I also talked about how missions are structured, Kojima wanted it to feel like a TV series, hence why the spoiler at the beginning of the mission.

We have new characters that you can't really interact with, even if we had a chapter 3 it would just feel like doing side ops mission, since most of the main missions are not that good.