Why does Kojima punish you for fighting lethally?

[Duke Mills]

I don't understand how you can make a game about war, and PUNISH people for fighting in war.

I have died and had game overs more times just trying to not kill anyone than if I had fought conventionally using warfare tactics.

Seriously they need to stop punishing people for fighting war in a game about war...

[mdesaleah]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von kornflakes89:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

What if you beat the game with no kills ;)?

Doesn't matter as that's gameplay, not story.

Nah, Kojima would harshly disagree especially since he loves combining story and gameplay. The only one that was a confirmed mass killer was Big Boss. Solid Snake was part of a war, but in the game’s story they never say how many kills are canon.

[Deathraven13]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von kornflakes89:

If you're calling Snake, whether it's Solid, Naked or Venom, a pacifist, I don't think you quite understand what pacifism is.

Hell, Solid Snake alone has a kill count that would've easily hit triple digits by the time he retired due to impending death.

What if you beat the game with no kills ;)?

I know that you are not very smart but try to remember that you can't do a deathless run in MGS5:TPP, why ? Because of Mission 43. So just with that you are wrong (as always)

For the story parts well Solid Snake Kill Sniper wolf.
Naked Snake killed his mentor.
Even if it's story that count as killing someone so you can't say they are pacifist.

Of course there is more kills that we could take into account but at this point everyone get the point.

[Deathraven13]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Deathraven13:

I know that you are not very smart but try to remember that you can't do a deathless run in MGS5:TPP, why ? Because of Mission 43. So just with that you are wrong (as always)

For the story parts well Solid Snake Kill Sniper wolf.
Naked Snake killed his mentor.
Even if it's story that count as killing someone so you can't say they are pacifist.

Of course there is more kills that we could take into account but at this point everyone get the point.

When did I ever specify Solid 5 ;)? Show me.

I already showed you:

"Originally posted by kornflakes89:

If you're calling Snake, whether it's Solid, Naked or Venom, a pacifist, I don't think you quite understand what pacifism is.

Hell, Solid Snake alone has a kill count that would've easily hit triple digits by the time he retired due to impending death."

Your answer:

"Originally posted by mdesaleah:

What if you beat the game with no kills ;)?"

In case it's not clear for you:

kornflakes89 says that whatever Snake (liquid, solid, naked, VENOM) they are not pacifist since they have killed, then you said "What if you beat the game with no kills ;)?" wich is impossible since in MGS5:TPP at mission 43 you can't complete the mission non lethaly. Or else go ahead and show me that you can complete mission 43 without killing (no cheat, glitch, bugs etc etc etc).

For the rest it seems you agree that Solid Snake killed storywise, so they are not pacifist.

[kornflakes89]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

Nah, Kojima would harshly disagree especially since he loves combining story and gameplay.

The only one that was a confirmed mass killer was Big Boss.

Solid Snake was part of a war, but in the game’s story they never say how many kills are canon.

Except Kojima doesn't combine story and gameplay.

And no, Solid Snake was also confirmed to be a killer with a high body count.

They don't need to, there's plenty of places in the games where he would've canonically killed guards.

In MGS1 you got the cell block, the Genome's in Raven's tank, the Genome's while going up the tower, the four stealth camo Genome's in the elevator, the Genome's that jump into the cargo elevator down to the cold storage room and all the Genome's during the jeep escape. All in all, that's 40 people in total.

MGS2, the Gurlukovich soldiers in the hallways before getting into the tanker holds, any Gurlukovich soldiers he killed getting off the ship, any of the Gurlukovich soldiers he killed while sniping with Raiden, the Arsenal Tengu's.

MGS4 would give him his highest canon kill count yet with the FROG's in act 1, all the PMC guys in the last bit of act 2, all the PMC guys in the bike chase in act 3, all the FROG's in Outer Haven before the Screaming Mantis boss fight.

None of the Snakes are pacifists. Sure, Solid might prefer to not kill when he's given the choice, but that doesn't mean he'll go out of his way to not kill when he has to.

[Deathraven13]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von kornflakes89:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

Nah, Kojima would harshly disagree especially since he loves combining story and gameplay.

The only one that was a confirmed mass killer was Big Boss.

Solid Snake was part of a war, but in the game’s story they never say how many kills are canon.

Except Kojima doesn't combine story and gameplay.

And no, Solid Snake was also confirmed to be a killer with a high body count.

They don't need to, there's plenty of places in the games where he would've canonically killed guards.

In MGS1 you got the cell block, the Genome's in Raven's tank, the Genome's while going up the tower, the four stealth camo Genome's in the elevator, the Genome's that jump into the cargo elevator down to the cold storage room and all the Genome's during the jeep escape. All in all, that's 40 people in total.

MGS2, the Gurlukovich soldiers in the hallways before getting into the tanker holds, any Gurlukovich soldiers he killed getting off the ship, any of the Gurlukovich soldiers he killed while sniping with Raiden, the Arsenal Tengu's.

MGS4 would give him his highest canon kill count yet with the FROG's in act 1, all the PMC guys in the last bit of act 2, all the PMC guys in the bike chase in act 3, all the FROG's in Outer Haven before the Screaming Mantis boss fight.

None of the Snakes are pacifists. Sure, Solid might prefer to not kill when he's given the choice, but that doesn't mean he'll go out of his way to not kill when he has to.

I'm starting to think that MGS5 is the only MGS he played, he knows so little about the story of the franchise. I don't have time to teach him about the whole story and I'm pretty sure he won't get it at all, also don't forget about MGS:PW :(

[mdesaleah]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von kornflakes89:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

Nah, Kojima would harshly disagree especially since he loves combining story and gameplay.

The only one that was a confirmed mass killer was Big Boss.

Solid Snake was part of a war, but in the game’s story they never say how many kills are canon.

Except Kojima doesn't combine story and gameplay.

And no, Solid Snake was also confirmed to be a killer with a high body count.

They don't need to, there's plenty of places in the games where he would've canonically killed guards.

In MGS1 you got the cell block, the Genome's in Raven's tank, the Genome's while going up the tower, the four stealth camo Genome's in the elevator, the Genome's that jump into the cargo elevator down to the cold storage room and all the Genome's during the jeep escape. All in all, that's 40 people in total.

MGS2, the Gurlukovich soldiers in the hallways before getting into the tanker holds, any Gurlukovich soldiers he killed getting off the ship, any of the Gurlukovich soldiers he killed while sniping with Raiden, the Arsenal Tengu's.

MGS4 would give him his highest canon kill count yet with the FROG's in act 1, all the PMC guys in the last bit of act 2, all the PMC guys in the bike chase in act 3, all the FROG's in Outer Haven before the Screaming Mantis boss fight.

None of the Snakes are pacifists. Sure, Solid might prefer to not kill when he's given the choice, but that doesn't mean he'll go out of his way to not kill when he has to.

True, I was thinking more about in the gameplay it isnt really confirmed what kills are canon. Forgot Solid 1 didnt have a tranquilizier initially. Although i flat out disagree with your Kojima statement. The entire ending of Solid 2 is combining gameplay with story, the ghost in Solid 3 does the same (forgot his name). All the games do a great job combining story with gameplay. Even Solid one had the whole "You enjoy all the killing" line that Liquid says at the end.

[Deathraven13]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Deathraven13:

I already showed you:

"Originally posted by kornflakes89:

If you're calling Snake, whether it's Solid, Naked or Venom, a pacifist, I don't think you quite understand what pacifism is.

Hell, Solid Snake alone has a kill count that would've easily hit triple digits by the time he retired due to impending death."

Your answer:

"Originally posted by mdesaleah:

What if you beat the game with no kills ;)?"

Nah. My comment clearly didnt say 5, and the fact the other commenter mentioned the other games means I could have been talking about any of the Snakes ;). Nice try though.

You didn't specify any MGS while he was talking about all the Snakes, Venom Snake is in MGS5:TPP and you said that if he beat the game without a single kill they are pacifist.

I'll quote your comment again and you'll tell me wich MGS you are clearly talking about:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

What if you beat the game with no kills ;)?

I'll answer that for you because you'll just try to change the subject because you hate being wrong even if that happen all the time: You never specified any MGS.

[s]

becuz this game's message is war = bad

[Deathraven13]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Deathraven13:

I'm starting to think that MGS5 is the only MGS he played, he knows so little about the story of the franchise. I don't have time to teach him about the whole story and I'm pretty sure he won't get it at all, also don't forget about MGS:PW :(

The only game I have and will never play out of moral obligation is Survive. The game with no story xD

You just proved my point as I expected.

Metal gear survive is not canon, that pretty shows you don't know about MGS lore.
Metal gear survive is not an MGS (MGS1 decided that now the main story will be MGS while the not full canon/spin off with some exceptions), so MGV is not MGS, MGS = Metal gear solid in case you didn't know. There is no Metal gear solid survive so now you know a bot more about the MGS serie :3

So can you complete MGS5:TPP without killing ? You never answered that question.

[Protoman]

Solid Snake killed hundreds of soldiers when Outer Heaven self-destructed back in Metal Gear 1 (not Solid, the first one). He had nightmares about it for years.

[kornflakes89]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

True, I was thinking more about in the gameplay it isnt really confirmed what kills are canon.

Forgot Solid 1 didnt have a tranquilizier initially.

Although i flat out disagree with your Kojima statement. The entire ending of Solid 2 is combining gameplay with story, the ghost in Solid 3 does the same (forgot his name). All the games do a great job combining story with gameplay. Even Solid one had the whole "You enjoy all the killing" line that Liquid says at the end.

Doesn't need to be confirmed. If you use common sense then all of those are the most likely points in the games where Solid Snake would've canonically killed.

MGS1 not having a tranq gun doesn't mean anything.

Good for you? That doesn't mean I'm wrong. No, MGS2 did not combine gameplay with story, I mean unless you're talking about Raiden's dogtags showing the name and birthdate you entered at the start of the game, but that's a reaching down the bottom of a real deep barrel. No The Sorrow in MGS3 did not combine story and gameplay, that was pure gameplay, if it were to go by who Naked Snake would've canonically killed "Aside from the bosses" then even in a 0 kill run there'd be soldier ghosts there.

The "You enjoy all the killing" quote from Liquid has nothing to do with gameplay, that's Liquid accusing Snake of being someone who enjoys killing people.

No matter which way you cut it, both Naked and Solid Snake killed a lot of people and aren't even close to being pacifists.

[[ACPL] Jon]

Snake's WMD was supposed to be a deterrent. How do you plan to guard international peace (or rather, "status quo") if anyone could ruin your force sending few ballistic missles with no threat of retaliation? As Snake said in PW ending (inaccurate quote?) "we gotta get with the times".

I didn't say Snake [whenever I say just "Snake" I mean either NS or VS, I'm not really that familiar with other ones] is a full-on pacifist, but after seeing the horrors of war, the ongoing hatred and death of loved ones due to politics of one kind of another they certainly seem more keen towards the peaceful solutions - otherwise, why the tranq rounds or non-lethal CQC?

But yeah, maybe my definition is off - I consider myself a pacifist even though I would still kill in certain circumstances, most probably with less hesitation than most people. Still, I'm an anti-war, anti-violence, in real world of course (I still love almost every bit of it in the virtual form, though). I don't think humans should solve their issues that way, but also I'm not deluding myself I can talk everyone into putting a knife away when eventual he wants something more than my wallet.

And I think both Snakes see it in similiar way. Spare if possible, if not... well, they're soldiers.

[kornflakes89]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ACPL Jon:

otherwise, why the tranq rounds or non-lethal CQC?

But yeah, maybe my definition is off - I consider myself a pacifist even though I would still kill in certain circumstances, most probably with less hesitation than most people. Still, I'm an anti-war, anti-violence, in real world of course (I still love almost every bit of it in the virtual form, though). I don't think humans should solve their issues that way, but also I'm not deluding myself I can talk everyone into putting a knife away when eventual he wants something more than my wallet.

And I think both Snakes see it in similiar way. Spare if possible, if not... well, they're soldiers.

In Naked Snake's case, in MGS3 he used a tranq gun because he wasn't supposed to be in Russia, so digging US issue ammo out of Russian corpses would be a very bad thing. In PO, PW and MGS5's (Though that's more Venom) case, he's building an army, you can't recruit someone if they're dead.

In Solid Snake's case, he used a tranq gun in MGS2 because he was infiltrating a ship full of US Marines, not terrorists and Philanthropy was officially recognized by the United Nations, so leaving behind a pile of dead Marines wouldn't be a very good idea. He got and started using something that fired real bullets as soon as he could after the Gurlukovich soldiers took over the ship. MGS4 just had it as an option, in the cutscenes, Snake just pockets it and uses the M4 and Operator, both lethal weapons.

Yeah, your definition is way off. Pacifism is the belief that any sort of violence is unjustifiable no matter the circumstances. By that definition, Naked, Solid and Venom are not pacifists as they're all perfectly willing to use violence to do the job. You're not a pacifist either, if you were, you wouldn't be willing to kill under any circumstances.

[~⁧⁧kapacb]

Partially pacifists?) (You kinda really punished for killing in mgs3 and mgsv, in pw i think Paz will call you if you kill to many or deeply wounded soldier(dont remember)(cant really tell about other mgs)
And meantime you can avoid most of combat (i think in mg also)

P.s. also mgsv punishes you to play stealth only by skipping lots really good music (bloodstained anthem from GZ, fob music etc.)

[Lexal]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mdesaleah:

What if you beat the game with no kills ;)?

You can't. You always have to kill the two XOF soldiers just before you get to the lobby.