Is Venom Snake in Mgs4?

[Cereza]

So I know Solid Snake kills "Big Boss" in Mgs2 but it turns out to be that he kills Venom Snake instead. So in Act 3 in Mgs4, Big Mama shows the body of "Big Boss" to Old Snake and he's in a van in this plastic container or whatever it is. Is that supposed to be Venom Snake or Solidus? I know Solid Snake kills Venom or "Big Boss" in Mgs2 but I keep hearing that he was somewhat still alive when they retrieved his body. I keep seeing people say it's Solidus but I feel like it would make more sense if it was Venom. I'm so confused, help.

[abcd]

kapacb の投稿を引用：

tausoldier の投稿を引用：

The argument happened because kappa and clownflake just don't like me, don't worry about it.

Argument happened because you dont know lore of game, just crazy speculations(you even didnt understand what happened to strangelove, which is obvious due tape or cutscene of Huey's trial)
Its always same "reading between the lines" and as always you do it where you shouldn't

dude, grow up. I made a mistake, and you cannot get over my mistake. because what, I gave you ♥♥♥♥ for yelling at me about it? doesn't get rid of your problem in the first place.

you aren't even willing to challenge my evidence with your own, just words that have nothing to do with what's in front of you.

kornflakes89 の投稿を引用：

tausoldier の投稿を引用：

The argument happened because kappa and clownflake just don't like me, don't worry about it.

I don't not like you, I don't even know you. Not that that really means anything since you're doing a pretty good job at making me not like you.

And no, the argument happened because you apparently don't like being told you're wrong about something.

Also, no, Venom wasn't mentioned in 4, 4 assumes that it was Big Boss in Outer Heaven, Venom wouldn't exist in the story and that plot point wouldn't be changed for another seven years.

we have a history. you also remind me of solidsnakekam14, who I don't have a beef with but who isn't really deserving of casual forum mercy either. if you aren't them I apologize, but I also don't really totally 100% believe your denial as you may or may not understand.

4 doesn't assume it was big boss in outer heaven, it's been a body-double since MG2 on the MSX.

In other words, Venom was a recycled asset in the first place; that's another layer of the ♥♥♥♥ that is his life. Try watching Snake talk to "Liquid," he explains it well enough.

https://youtu.be/WOK4GsqNVHo

@22:25.

Mango の投稿を引用：

Did they really mention the events in Mgs4?

Pretty sure, but they sneak codecs and backstory in the wildest of places. Very hard to accurately source that game.

[Misa]

Mgsv is not real. It's all a dream interpellation

[abcd]

Moon の投稿を引用：

Mgsv is not real. It's all a dream interpellation

Are my experiences that of the gamer whom plays the game, or the game which defines the gamer's experiences?

[kornflakes89]

tausoldier の投稿を引用：

we have a history. you also remind me of solidsnakekam14, who I don't have a beef with but who isn't really deserving of casual forum mercy either. if you aren't them I apologize, but I also don't really totally 100% believe your denial as you may or may not understand.

4 doesn't assume it was big boss in outer heaven, it's been a body-double since MG2 on the MSX.

In other words, Venom was a recycled asset in the first place; that's another layer of the ♥♥♥♥ that is his life. Try watching Snake talk to "Liquid," he explains it well enough.

Uhh, no we don't have history, I've never even seen your username until this topic.

Yes it does. MGS5 retconning it does not change that the stories of MG2, MGS1, 2 and 4 play out as if it were Big Boss at Outer Heaven. No, it was always the real Big Boss at Outer Heaven up until MGS5.

Venom wasn't recycled, he never existed until MGS5.

[abcd]

kornflakes89 の投稿を引用：

Uhh, no we don't have history, I've never even seen your username until this topic.

Sorry, wasn't being specific. I meant me and kapacb.

Yes it does. MGS5 retconning it does not change that the stories of MG2, MGS1, 2 and 4 play out as if it were Big Boss at Outer Heaven. No, it was always the real Big Boss at Outer Heaven up until MGS5.

Venom wasn't recycled, he never existed until MGS5.

Metal Gear 1 and Metal Gear 2's stories remain largely untouched by Metal Gear Solid 1 - Metal Gear Solid V. I'd say the biggest retcons were describing the comatose states of Big Boss and Solidus as being due to nanos, since those didn't show up until MGS1 and Solidus didn't exist until MGS 2.

Big Boss's body double has been canon since long before Metal Gear Solid V.

[kornflakes89]

tausoldier の投稿を引用：

Metal Gear 1 and Metal Gear 2's stories remain largely untouched by Metal Gear Solid 1 - Metal Gear Solid V. I'd say the biggest retcons were describing the comatose states of Big Boss and Solidus as being due to nanos, since those didn't show up until MGS1 and Solidus didn't exist until MGS 2.

Big Boss's body double has been canon since long before Metal Gear Solid V.

Do you just not pay any attention to anything when playing these games? Because from your first comment right up to this one, it seems that you're lacking an incredible amount of basic knowledge of the lore.

No MG1 and 2's story do not remain largely untouched, MGS5 happens to be the biggest offender since one of MG2's plot points was Big Boss, after his defeat in MG1, saved some of the Outer Heaven resistance members from getting caught in the nuke that got dropped there.

No, Solidus existed in MGS1, that's who Ocelot is talking to in the post-credit phone call.

No, Big Boss never had a body double before MGS5.

[m0k]

inb4 tausoldier deleting his Steam account.

[~⁧⁧kapacb]

kornflakes89 の投稿を引用：

Doesn't matter if it's just a voice, it's still Solidus and Ocelot even refers to him as Solidus, so Solidus has existed since MGS1. The decoy van is not Venom's first appearance because A, It's Solidus's body and B, Venom didn't even exist until seven years after MGS4 was made.

Could you explain it more deeply,(venom didnt exist until mgsv) cause i didnt played mg1 and mg2 and what was there knows very briefly
How its explained that solid killed BB two times?

[kornflakes89]

kapacb の投稿を引用：

Could you explain it more deeply,(venom didnt exist until mgsv) cause i didnt played mg1 and mg2 and what was there knows very briefly
How its explained that solid killed BB two times?

What I mean is that Venom didn't exist as a character until he was created for MGS5.

It wasn't really explained how Big Boss survived MG1, he just had some generic "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME SNAKE!" bit of dialogue after you beat the game and it's assumed that he wasn't really dead.

[abcd]

kornflakes89 の投稿を引用：

The decoy in the van is missing its left eye, as is the one on the boat (Which would be obvious since it's the same body) Solidus was missing his left eye and Ocelot needed Solidus's body to take over the SOP system because it was a 100% DNA match to Big Boss. Therefor, it's Solidus's body. All the evidence is in the game and you'd have known that if you paid attention.

I'm aware of the plot reasons Ocelot wanted Solidus' body.

https://youtu.be/CfAHlnnOvSU

@21:40 The corpse in the van has its left eye closed, and the right eye is just a pit of shadows. The shadows extend much deeper into the eye-socket than would be appropriate if there were another eyeball or eyelid inside of them. It really looks like it's missing an eye.

When Snake reaches out to touch the biomort and the camera switches to its perspective, the camera appears to be looking out of the left eye. The way the camera cuts are done and the way the shot is angled are very confusing, but going by what the biomort sees, and Snake's before and after poses, Snake's hand appears to be closer to the left side of the body than the right. Meaning it was looking at him out of its left eye.

https://youtu.be/WOK4GsqNVHo

@19:40 Big Mama explains that "the three vans that came out with us were decoys. The real one is floating down the river, headed downstream." I don't recall hearing any vans leave during the cutscene in the church, so the "Pyx" Big Mama shows Snake is presumably the same one they leave with. Of the three vans, he examines exactly one. It's full of wooden boxes. The other vans are nowhere to be seen. There is no dialogue or sequences of events to imply a switch took place.

Meanwhile, the corpse on the river that Ocelot burns has a clearly-visible right eye, and a closed left eye. The left eye never opens to show what's underneath, so it's never conclusively established that it is Solidus' body. It does seem to have the lid fused closed though, which I cannot compare with the one in the van as some lighting effects on the plastic obscure where the slit in the lids would be. I tried to check the eye-color on the visible iris, but between the flames and the plastic wrap it's hard to tell. Could be blue, could be brown.

So: we see a body. Ocelot says it's the one he took the nanos from. We never really see any of that happen, which is interesting because I had a phantom memory that Ocelot stuck a needle into it and extracted something. Instead, Ocelot produces the biomort off-screen, from a ship which we only see the wreckage of, and already has SOP access by the time Snake even shows up. I don't really doubt this biomort is Solidus, but there's quite a lot of gaps in the information we're given about it.

It might be interpreted that "the real one" refers to a van, but the little motorboat wreckage Ocelot gestures at (@23:05) isn't big enough to hold a van. So it probably just departed from a separate riverside safehouse around the same time the vans did and very quietly floated down the river, without motors, while Snake fought Raven.

So who was that in the van?

kornflakes89 の投稿を引用：

kapacb の投稿を引用：

Could you explain it more deeply,(venom didnt exist until mgsv) cause i didnt played mg1 and mg2 and what was there knows very briefly
How its explained that solid killed BB two times?

What I mean is that Venom didn't exist as a character until he was created for MGS5.

It wasn't really explained how Big Boss survived MG1, he just had some generic "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME SNAKE!" bit of dialogue after you beat the game and it's assumed that he wasn't really dead.

As I understand it, at or near the end of Metal Gear 2 Big Boss explains the global conspiracy to Solid Snake and tells him that the previous Big Boss was a body-double. The double is left unnamed until MGSV. I'm bad at 8bit pixels though, so I've never beaten either of them. 2 in particular is hard to get a hold of, unless you're willing to learn how to run an MSX box. I'd rather not watch a playthrough, since it would ruin the games for me.

I looked at the last few minutes of a Metal Gear playthrough though, and he kind of just disappears and the door opens. No talk about "next time," even during the preamble. Just phases out of existence. Like everyone else you kill in the game. Then Outer Heaven explodes.

In the hospital Venom appears to have a cataract in his right eye ("milky" look,) most likely as a result of concussive force from the bomb and helicopter crash severing the optical nerve and causing the eye's lens to stop maintaining itself and develop the opaque color characteristic of cataracts. Meaning it's dead, and may have been popped out or burned when Outer Heaven blew up as there's really nothing it's attached to. The lack of an orb in the eye socket for the muscles to grip inevitably causes the bone structures around it to sag and gape, potentially giving that "hollow" look.

Big Boss' right eye isn't detached, or missing. It appears to have been blinded by bright light and heat from muzzle flash. This would blind him and permanently damage the lens, but wouldn't necessarily cause the appearance of cataracts and wouldn't make the eye more likely to fall out.

I don't see the need to be so insulting of my attention span. You aren't negging me, are you?

[kornflakes89]

tausoldier の投稿を引用：

So who was that in the van?

As I understand it, at or near the end of Metal Gear 2 Big Boss explains the global conspiracy to Solid Snake and tells him that the previous Big Boss was a body-double.

I looked at the last few minutes of a Metal Gear playthrough though, and he kind of just disappears and the door opens. No talk about "next time," just phases out of existence. Like everyone else you kill in the game. Then Outer Heaven explodes.

In the hospital Venom appears to have a cataract in his right eye ("milky" look,) most likely as a result of concussive force from the bomb and helicopter crash severing the optical nerve and causing the eye's lens to stop maintaining itself and develop the opaque color characteristic of cataracts. Meaning it's dead, and may have been popped out or burned when Outer Heaven blew up. The lack of an orb in the eye socket for the muscles to grip inevitably causes the bone structures around it to sag and gape, potentially giving that "hollow" look. So, you know, fun fact: Venom is walking around with a dead eyeball in his skull.

I don't see the need to be so insulting of my attention span. You aren't negging me, are you?

As I've already said and will continue to say, Solidus was the one in the van and on the boat as it is the same body. The van was transporting the body to the boat and Ocelot and friends ambushed it and torched the boat.

I've played both MG1 and MG2, Big Boss in MG2 does not say anything about having a body double. Big Boss in MG1 is a retcon as, prior to MGS5, it was the real Big Boss in both games.

Yeah...and the dialogue I mentioned was after the credits, not literally after you beat him.

For future reference, don't comment on the events in games that you haven't played or at least watched a full play through of.

Except when Outer Heaven blew up, it was nuked, so whether or not the eye popped out in the explosion wouldn't matter as there wouldn't be anything left of the body anyway.

Asking whether or not you paid attention when playing the games is not an insult. You taking it as an insult is not my problem.

[abcd]

As I've already said and will continue to say, Solidus was the one in the van and on the boat as it is the same body.

How can the one in the van appear to be missing its right eyeball, then? How does it look at Solid out of its left eye?

Except when Outer Heaven blew up, it was nuked, so whether or not the eye popped out in the explosion wouldn't matter as there wouldn't be anything left of the body anyway.

Really depends. Seemed like he was pretty deep in an underground bunker, so it's possible he'd mostly only experience the force of the shockwave and the heat from secondary ignition. So it could have easily blown his eye out.

You should read some accounts of Hiroshima or Nagasaki after the blast. It knocked a lot of buildings over, flattened the city, but the initial explosion didn't kill many people. Most people died of radiation sickness, fires, being buried under rubble, etc. Some people even just got blown out of their house and were otherwise untouched.

Asking whether or not you paid attention when playing the games is not an insult. You taking it as an insult is not my problem.

kornflakes89 の投稿を引用：

you'd have known that if you paid attention.

This doesn't sound even remotely close to a question, polite or otherwise.

Don't make up excuses to justify your rude behavior towards people.

kornflakes89 の投稿を引用：

For future reference, don't comment on the events in games that you haven't played or at least watched a full play through of.

That's a pretty good command piece of advice for saving face, but I'm not going to listen to it.

Yeah...and the dialogue I mentioned was after the credits, not literally after you beat him.

You know, I thought that might have been the case? But you didn't specify and the only playthrough I found doesn't show an after-credit sequence.

Have you considered that it was the real Big Boss speaking in that scenario, foreshadowing the next game's boss? Just like in MGS1 with Solidus? People ask factually incorrect speculative questions like this without doing the research pretty much all the time. Getting mad at them isn't going to do anything about that, it's just going to make you look like a petty tool. If it's such an issue for you, just don't answer and leave them alone.

[~⁧⁧kapacb]

tausoldier の投稿を引用：

It's just a voice. If you hold that this is the first appearance of Solidus, then the decoy in the van is quite possibly the first appearance of Venom.

I've looked into mg1 BB appearance and couldn't find a protrait, so basically in mg1 we have only voice(text)
So, kornflakes89, probably right(if it comes to choosing between you two)
Not to mention he sounds more convincing than you

[kornflakes89]

tausoldier の投稿を引用：

How can the one in the van appear to be missing its right eyeball, then? How does it look at Solid out of its left eye?

Really depends. Seemed like he was pretty deep in an underground bunker, so it's possible he'd mostly only experience the force of the shockwave and the heat from secondary ignition. So it could have easily blown his eye out.

You should read some accounts of Hiroshima or Nagasaki after the blast.

This doesn't sound even remotely close to a question, polite or otherwise.

Don't make up excuses to justify your rude behavior towards people.

That's a pretty good command piece of advice for saving face, but I'm not going to listen to it.

You know, I thought that might have been the case? But you didn't specify and the only playthrough I found doesn't show an after-credit sequence.

Have you considered that it was the real Big Boss speaking in that scenario, foreshadowing the next game's boss?

Getting mad at them isn't going to do anything about that, it's just going to make you look like a petty tool. If it's such an issue for you, just don't answer and leave them alone.

It's not and it isn't. There's only one body.

Being in an underground bunker wouldn't mean anything if they used bunker busters...which they did.

Yeah that's fascinating and all...but how is that at all relevant? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were in the 1940's, MG1 takes place in 1995. Nuclear weapons had advanced quite a bit in the fifty years since then.

Doesn't matter, still not an insult.

Yeah...this coming from the guy who said "So y'know, f*** you clown" doesn't really mean much.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Instead of playing the game, something that would help out a lot when talking about the lore of said game, you're going to not play it and say things like "Big Boss in MG2 said he had a body double." which is something he never said.

And that's on you, not my fault you only looked up one video and it happened to be one that didn't show the credits or the after credits. See, this is where my advice on playing a game before talking about the lore of the game would come in handy.

Yes...because prior to MGS5, it was the real Big Boss in both MG1 and 2.

Except you're the only one getting mad here.

[~⁧⁧kapacb]

tausoldier の投稿を引用：

kornflakes89 の投稿を引用：

For future reference, don't comment on the events in games that you haven't played or at least watched a full play through of.

That's a pretty good command piece of advice for saving face, but I'm not going to listen to it.

That explains alot actually))

tausoldier の投稿を引用：

How can the one in the van appear to be missing its right eyeball, then? How does it look at Solid out of its left eye?

Well.
1)Solids hand above right eye
2)Then (when body flinched) game shows closed(injured) left eye
So, there is an eye on right side, a healthy one, just poorly shown