Reasons why 2033 Redux will SUCK!!!

[Captain Blue]

All of the cool nuanced stealth mechanics were stripped out in LL like having to destory the head lamps on enemy soldiers because their light source would expose you, broken glass and needing good accuracy to kill armoured gaurds where they were vulnerable or to prevent them from calling out. So I imagine they will remove them all in 2033 Redux too. Also throwing knives were one of my favorite weapons in 2033 but they nerfed them to trash tier useless in LL. Say goodbye to the Stealth Suit too because it's using LL's On / Off Stealth mode. Stay in the dark you're completely invisible. In 2033 you needed the Stealth suit to be completely invisible in less dark areas. Because 2033 had visable, partially visable and invisible levels to stealth. But now we have LL's dumbed down visable or invisible modes.

To be honest I was dead excited about this Redux but now I think I've bought a mechanically inferior version of 2033 with better graphics. Also from what I hear is that survival mode isn't going to make Last Light a better game.

If Redux turns out how I fear then Metro will no longer be one of my favorite franchises of all time. 4A Games will be forever to known to me as the idiots who flopped it, sold out and dumbed their game down for mass consumption.

[RangerHawk]

There is a simple answer. Don't buy it. Or at least waite till it is released before you condem it for being dumbed down. Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to stiffle conversation. I'm just not convinced the arguement holds water. The guys at 4A love their work. Even Last light Redux is using a newer version of the engin with two new skill levels.

[Captain Blue]

Publicado originalmente por RangerHawk:

There is a simple answer. Don't buy it. Or at least waite till it is released before you condem it for being dumbed down. Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to stiffle conversation. I'm just not convinced the arguement holds water. The guys at 4A love their work. Even Last light Redux is using a newer version of the engin with two new skill levels.

But last light was already dumbed down from 2033 and redux is just importing all the LL stuff over. So how can the argument hold no water?

Publicado originalmente por mountveggie:

Sadly, I gotta agree. As a (really) long time Steam user, I can say that the Steam forums used to be an awesome place to hang out and discuss games. In fact, it was amazing up until very recently. Now, it's just overtaken by ranting, raving lunatics who obviously have more time than brains.

I've already given up on reading YouTube comments. Soon, I'll have to say goodbye to the once outstanding Steam forums as well. :(

Is that because people whine more, more whiners came or games are getting so bad with so much scum baggery that more people complain? While other people sit back and let it happen.

[Captain Blue]

Publicado originalmente por It'sUber:

The stealth was dumbed down in LL but 2033's stealth was pure ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. The AI's had x-ray vision once they saw you and I swear you'd be spotted magically sometimes.

2033's stealth was not pure ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ at all. Only when you got caught they knew where you were and would kill you. This made stealth unforgiving for sure but the whole point of stealth is to not get caught.

The actual stealth system was fine it was the enemy behaviour when you got caught that was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Which was only made worse by a check point system instead of quick save function.

All they had to do was not give x ray vision to the enemy when they caught you. They should of let you hide but keep the enemy on a more heightened state of alert for penalty for getting caught.

There you go, a perfect stealth system.

[Zeer0]

All they had to do was not give x ray vision to the enemy when they caught you. They should of let you hide but keep the enemy on a more heightened state of alert for penalty for getting caught.

There you go, a perfect stealth system. [/quote]

I will say 2033 stealth was not great as people have said one guy sees you your ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and everyone goes on high alert even if you kill the guy that saw you and hid they always found you but with last light for me anyways they fixed it for me when i was found out i got the guy then re hid in the shadows and while moving i saw the enemys were jumpy and had there head lights on they did not know where i was but they were on high alert

[Captain Blue]

Publicado originalmente por zeer0:

I will say 2033 stealth was not great as people have said one guy sees you your ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and everyone goes on high alert even if you kill the guy that saw you and hid they always found you but with last light for me anyways they fixed it for me when i was found out i got the guy then re hid in the shadows and while moving i saw the enemys were jumpy and had there head lights on they did not know where i was but they were on high alert

But the whole point of Stealth is to not get caught so how can you hate on the stealth because you got caught?

Last Light "fixed it" by reducing the detection system to a two tiered system of in light visable and in the dark not visable. So your chances of getting caught got drastically reduced because casuals didn't want to have to deal with partially visable light sources. Then they removed the need to have to destory enemy head lamps when you kill them to get rid of the light source that could expose you. Which is no doubt the number one reason of people complaining that "stealth sucks because enemies see me from far away when I'm in teh dark". Believe me there were alot of people complaining about that stuff because they're were too dumb to understand how the detection system worked. Then they removed all broken glass and pretty much most of the trip wires in the game. Another thing casuals didn't want to have to deal with. Then they dumb down the AI to the point where it has no chance in hell of being able to detect you while sneaking. Then they add in a crappy reaction system that allows you to kill the guy that see's you and prevent an alert phase. Then if you get caught like you say, you can hide and they will lose track of you.

But you have to be so bad to even get to the point where you need to hide. The stealth system is so dumbed down THERE IS NO WAY FOR A NORMAL PERSON TO BREAK STEALTH.

You can't fail stealth in Last Light.

It's not worth fixing the one thing that was bad about 2033 to break everything else in the game. At the end of the day getting caught in a stealth game should be unforgiving. The whole point of stealth is trivialised if you can just go hide again whenever you get caught.

The stealth system in Last Light was designed for instant gratification. Instant gratification only works on people who are incapbale of doing anything skilled on their own and / or too dumb and ignorant to realise there was no skill involved in it in first place and buy into the illusion.

[Madjoki]

Didn't they say they were going to fix stealth in Last Light Redux? So it doesn't make sense to break it in 2033 Redux.

[Captain Blue]

Publicado originalmente por Madjoki:

Didn't they say they were going to fix stealth in Last Light Redux? So it doesn't make sense to break it in 2033 Redux.

All they're doing is making the AI not as dumb. All the mechanics will still be the dumbed down last light versions.

Publicado originalmente por CHUGGO:

"Stealth" in Metro has always been hilariously terrible.

What was so terrible about stealth in 2033?

[MolCular]

^Someone who studied differences^ Now without original ten 2033 attack/stealth melees--Redux 2033 game lost many different gameplay options for stealth.

In Last Light sneaking up behind or understanding patrol patterns not as difficult; due to a player always able kill/knock out enemy without being exposed even with RHC. If a player hit Metro 2033 NPC with throwing knife stab or slash or punch NPC in wrong area: a player had to engage in close hand to hand combat, this is one nuance Last light lacks. A player had to force hand to hand combat in Last Light. Last Light having only one trench Knife melee limited close quarter combat options. Metro 2033 is much more thrilling-- a player never knew how AI would react creating numerous possible outcomes. Original 2033 three tier system in RHC created havoc if a player went too early or late. I find 2033 to much more challenging due complex elements, allowing players many options to procede. Last Light crisper gunplay will never make up for a stealth system being completely noticable after a few levels even with adaptive AI. Also, Metro 2033 Mutant Hand to hand combat is miles ahead of Last Light and more thrilling to engage in. Last Light's limited melee system really takes away from player having choices for combat engagement.

[NOCTURNE]

Publicado originalmente por Sexual Sandwich:

Publicado originalmente por zeer0:

I will say 2033 stealth was not great as people have said one guy sees you your ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and everyone goes on high alert even if you kill the guy that saw you and hid they always found you but with last light for me anyways they fixed it for me when i was found out i got the guy then re hid in the shadows and while moving i saw the enemys were jumpy and had there head lights on they did not know where i was but they were on high alert

But the whole point of Stealth is to not get caught so how can you hate on the stealth because you got caught?

Last Light "fixed it" by reducing the detection system to a two tiered system of in light visable and in the dark not visable. So your chances of getting caught got drastically reduced because casuals didn't want to have to deal with partially visable light sources. Then they removed the need to have to destory enemy head lamps when you kill them to get rid of the light source that could expose you. Which is no doubt the number one reason of people complaining that "stealth sucks because enemies see me from far away when I'm in teh dark". Believe me there were alot of people complaining about that stuff because they're were too dumb to understand how the detection system worked. Then they removed all broken glass and pretty much most of the trip wires in the game. Another thing casuals didn't want to have to deal with. Then they dumb down the AI to the point where it has no chance in hell of being able to detect you while sneaking. Then they add in a crappy reaction system that allows you to kill the guy that see's you and prevent an alert phase. Then if you get caught like you say, you can hide and they will lose track of you.

But you have to be so bad to even get to the point where you need to hide. The stealth system is so dumbed down THERE IS NO WAY FOR A NORMAL PERSON TO BREAK STEALTH.

You can't fail stealth in Last Light.

It's not worth fixing the one thing that was bad about 2033 to break everything else in the game. At the end of the day getting caught in a stealth game should be unforgiving. The whole point of stealth is trivialised if you can just go hide again whenever you get caught.

The stealth system in Last Light was designed for instant gratification. Instant gratification only works on people who are incapbale of doing anything skilled on their own and / or too dumb and ignorant to realise there was no skill involved in it in first place and buy into the illusion.

Agreed.

Anyway, IF they will make another metro game, they will do the same with the gas mask/filter system too, I am sure that. For example, they will make it that way you only have to put on the mask and thats it, you won't need to find filters. Because players still too ♥♥♥♥ in it. They are simply too ignorant or blind to look around and pick up the filters. No, they run out... I completed both metro games on all difficulties, and I never run out. Thats why i don't understand those who did. There are filters everywhere.

[RIOT|Stalkermaster]

I think one thing many people can agree on is thst 2033s stealth felt satisfying when done right

Yes it may of felt unfair how the enemies knew where you were or how you did one mistake and bam you were caught

I remember completing the mission front lines without being seen or killing anyone. That felt like a real achievement., to which even games like the recent Thief just couldn't do right

[Captain Blue]

Publicado originalmente por NOCTURNE:

Agreed.

Anyway, IF they will make another metro game, they will do the same with the gas mask/filter system too, I am sure that. For example, they will make it that way you only have to put on the mask and thats it, you won't need to find filters. Because players still too ♥♥♥♥ in it. They are simply too ignorant or blind to look around and pick up the filters. No, they run out... I completed both metro games on all difficulties, and I never run out. Thats why i don't understand those who did. There are filters everywhere. Just need to see that this is not a cod game, where you need to go and shoot everything without thinking. This game needs some brain activity, not like cod.

I had like 40 mins of oxygen in Last Light before I even needed to really use my gas mask. At that point I had to start deliberately not picking up any more filters. So dumb.

I remember people crying about filters in the first game yet I never had a problem. Except for one point in the game where I had no filters left, I was fighting dudes on the surface. I had to desperately take every gas mask from every dude that I killed so I wouldn't die. It was so exhilarating and rewarding when I made it through.

[Captain Blue]

Publicado originalmente por CHUGGO:

Publicado originalmente por Sexual Sandwich:

What was so terrible about stealth in 2033?

It's exceedingly shallow, arbitrary, and inconsistent. The only way it qualifies to be labeled as 'stealth' is that you don't prompt the AI to engage you.

"Great, you stood in the shadows long enough for the AI to patrol past you leaving you to move about freely in their pathing deadzone, please continue on to the next area where we'll repeat the process."

"But wait, sometimes you'll need to silently takedown a guy or two, how dynamic!"

"Or you can make noise to distract them long enough for you to slip by, depth!"

LMAO

So needing to be aware of two satges of visibility, Needing to be aware of all light sources, sound sources and trip wires is shallow? Is needing the right weaponry and exact accuracy to bypass armor shallow?

What is inconsistent about 2033?

LMAO

You just don't like stealth games because you have just descibed the fundamentals of a Stealth game.

"The only way it qualifies to be labeled as 'stealth' is that you don't prompt the AI to engage you"

Yes that is a Stealth game.


So why dodn't you tell me a stealth game or tell me how a Stealth game that works that isn't shallow, arbitrary or inconsistent.

Are you not embarrassed for posting complete and utter tosh?

[Captain Blue]

Publicado originalmente por CHUGGO:

Yes.
There is no depth beyond 'can they see me Y/N', and 'is my weapon loud Y/N'.



I have just described the fundamentals of bad stealth games because that is the status quo. If you wish to defend an obviously casual approach to stealth mechanics, by all means.

There aren't any.

The concept of stealth, undetected movement and the ability to conceal one's self in close proximity to imminent contact, is brutally difficult to replicate in a believable manner that is still 'fun' for the end-user without taking an obscene length of time to R&D.
The intimate level of knowledge of stealth in the real world that is required is such that a programmer is extremely unlikely to be privy to, so we'll only ever see the arbitrary "I am in a shadow so that guy 5 feet from me can't see me" excuse of a stealth mechanic.

I never said I didn't like stealth games.
I said stealth in every game ever is underwhelming when it comes to fidelity.
It's ok to admit that something you like has flaws.

That is how all stealth games are and will always be because it's still supposed to be a game at the end of the day and not a simulation.

The point of this thread is that as far as stealth games go 2033 had the most depth to a stealth game I've ever known and they dumbed it all down in Last Light to retarded levels of dumb.

Why make such a useless post voicing unrealistic criticism of a game that isn't relevant to the topic of the thread?

[Captain Blue]

Publicado originalmente por CHUGGO:

Publicado originalmente por Sexual Sandwich:

That is how all stealth games are and will always be because it's still supposed to be a game at the end of the day and not a simulation.

So, because it's a game we're all supposed to happily scarf down whatever feces they serve and beg for more?
Being a game and being a simulation aren't mutually exclusive, look at ARMA.

They are mutually exclusive in this case because I doubt a realistic first person stealth game would be any fun. Just really really tedious. Also it would still come down to" do you see me Y/N". It's a stealth game it's unavoidable.

Also it still isn't relevant to the thread topic.

Publicado originalmente por CHUGGO:

Why did you make a thread crying about changes you think are happening to a game that hasn't even released?

Because these changes are happening in the game. There is gameplay footage you know?

[Captain Blue]

Publicado originalmente por CHUGGO:

And that's OK, because that's your opinion.

A completely true opinion or somebody would of made one by now but probably stopped because they realised it's no fun. Imagine it. It would be super boring and tedious. It would be so hard nobody would play it and find it fun.

Publicado originalmente por Sexual Sandwich:

Trailer-vision, you know?

Trailer-vision???

There is actual gameplay that shows the game is using the two tiered stealth system from Last Light.