TTS Moral Issues

[Hunter Wolf]

A lot of board game servers I'm on in discord complain that using TTS mods is illegal if you don't own the game irl if using TTS is piracy shouldn't it just come down then? It seems most publishers don't tend to care about tts and rarely order mods taken down. I have 676 hours on TTS so I use it a lot not against it just curious if everyone calls me out for using mods of games I don't own why is TTS still around?

[Smokalotapotamus]

LOL

We're living in the dark future dude. Seriously just try to enjoy life and don't worry about "intellectual property rights" and stop spending time with people who do.

In a few decades we're going to look back at "intellectual property rights" and laugh about it. It's an artifact of a dying ideology.

[Baryonyx]

Yes there are games that get taken down quickly whenever they come up. In particular steve jackson games, things like munchkin, memoir 44, ticket to ride. This is mostly due to these games having their own online version somewhere else. Games Workshop also does a big sweep every now and then, but not often. At least with SJG, the devs have attempted to negotiate DLCs, but nothing ever came of it.

That being said, the game itself and the developers are actually not really accountable for any piracy here, because the vast majority of games are on the workshop, and are made by players. The workshop mods are for free, so nobody is selling any pirated content.

So with the legal things out of the way, for the most part you are right, the game makers do not seem to care or might actually appreciate the free advertisement. There are also many games on the workshop where the creator actually asked and received permission from the author.

In the end, by playing these games, you are not doing anything wrong. If they get removed, the person that uploaded them gets a notification, perhaps a DMCA notice, and thats it.

By the way, search the forum, this topic has been discussed multiple times already, with responses more insightful than mine.

[Marco_Kpc]

.. and nobody is gonna call you out !! if you are a modder maybe then could happen that your mod will be taken out...

[SaltyO]

ignore those people they know nothing.

[Boresight]

It''s because of TTS that I ended up purchasing physical copies of the game. Some developers include a payable version of their game, which is fine with me.

[Heikai]

I have heard that TTS takes a 50% cut of the games they sell while the industry standard is 30%. This is on top of the Steam's 30% cut of course. Also, it's kind of crazy how TTS sells copies by allowing people to pirate games.

[ulia]

Originally posted by Heikai:

I have heard that TTS takes a 50% cut of the games they sell while the industry standard is 30%. This is on top of the Steam's 30% cut of course. Also, it's kind of crazy how TTS sells copies by allowing people to pirate games.

The revenue split numbers are correct, but the comparison is not as our DLC is not an appstore/publishing deal where the cut is taken purely for hosting and minor marketing (having your app on the platform). We develop the digital renditions of the DLC games for the designer/publisher, which often comes at a substantial cost in comparison to the revenue. Looking at the games on a case-by-case it's not uncommon that we don't break even.

That's not to say we're opposed to adjustment, but the reality is that the DLC platform is there to provide official games for users to enjoy and isn't structured for revenue. Our DLC partners have been happy with not having to pay a dime to get their game developed and published for the digital platform.

As for the piracy, games (more specifically the visual material for them) can be pirated with or without Tabletop Sim with the only difference being providing a digital space to play boardgames in. We don't support or endorse any kind of piracy and the material we use to portray the game makes that pretty clear, as does having a library of DLC games that are officially licensed in collaboration with the IP holder.

The problem lays in workshop submission by users containing material they don't own the right to upload, which is a problem without a doubt, but is not something that can be dealt with preemptively because of how IP ownership works.

Originally posted by MoogleWolf:

If using TTS is piracy shouldn't it just come down then?

Generally using TTS is not piracy, but playing mods that contain resources to pirated material could be. Save files are pointers to external resources and don't contain any infringing material. As an easily digestible analogy, loading up a save game is not much different than sharing links to files in a chat window, which doesn't render the chat service a tool for piracy, though naturally measures could be put in place to prevent that kind of usage if it isn't appropriate for the platform.

Originally posted by MoogleWolf:

It seems most publishers don't tend to care about tts and rarely order mods taken down.

This isn't true, but what "most" is, is quite subjective. Many mods that serve infringing material are taken down almost daily, as IP owners are fully in their right to reclaim (most commonly remove) their material. Whether it's "good marketing" for the IP holder is a different discussion, but it doesn't justify piracy as much as it encourages making the game available under fair and legal terms.

Originally posted by Baryonyx:

The workshop mods are for free, so nobody is selling any pirated content.

This isn't a good statement to make as commercial use isn't a prerequisite to calling it piracy, most piracy is in fact distributing commercial material for free. Users distributing material they don't have the rights to distribute is piracy no less, doing it commercially just makes the case much worse and probably has some other definition that doesn't come to mind at the moment.

Originally posted by Smokalotapotamus:

In a few decades we're going to look back at "intellectual property rights" and laugh about it. It's an artifact of a dying ideology.

It's an evolving ideology in a world that's becoming all the more focused on the digital. A fair few of the current laws might be poorly thought out, but IP rights are a necessity for keeping the entire digital scene and it's millions of contributors afloat. If everything was public domain, few if any would be able to create material for others to enjoy.

[SaltyO]

Well, there's more states of IP than "controlled entirely by the identity that owns it" and "public domain," but you know that :P

[Hunter Wolf]

Hmm maybe I should just not worry about it?

[Philippe_at_bay]

Digital games don't even come close to delivering the visual and tactile satisfaction of a well-made physical board game with high production values. But you don't have to explain to your wife where you're going to put it when you're running out of storage space.

There are several board games that I'm thinking of buying, but am trying them out in TTS to see if I like them enough to spend forty to eighty bucks on them (my price point for digital games is usually less than twenty).

Eventually more board game companies will wake up to the fact that TTS modules are a fabulous marketing tool. Games with good production values can get expensive and take up storage space, and you'd better be sure you like one if you decide you want to own it.

I've been puttering around with Vassal for years, and TTS is much easier to get into.

[videomike_Ultimate_Plushie]

Well posted from the developer. And he's right. Anything that exists on TTS has to be loaded from some third party, all it's doing is giving the physics system to host files youd be sharing anyway. If they didn't have TTS anyone doing "piracy"(we'll get to that) will be doing it anyway. At worst it's jsut a meeting place but TTS isn't the first or by any stretch only such place. TTS cannot realistically be asked to keep moderation over EVERY, SINGLE, LINK ever applied. Especially for games that may not be commercial like open source which can change distribution rights on a whim.

Second, while it is true non-commercial piracy is illegal, taking copyright material isn't strictly illegal either. You are committing theft is you compete in such a way to limit or devalue the scarcity of an item. You can take a single sentence from 10,000 essays and write your own essay with them and it wouldn't be theft, since the sentences themselves aren't being used competitively but in an entirely new format to a totally unrelated goal. The limits are highly complicated, but there are limits. Refer to lawyer for further detailed. This isn't japan where you can be that 4 year old that brings a ball to the daycare and says "only X Y and Z can play with me but I don't like B so they can't play." it's only only to create necessary artificial scarcity and avoid undue competition.

The developer is also correct in saying that commercial sale does make the breach more severe, and he should have added much -much- more strict. You can, for example, host a game that is technically barred from distribution and then use it for a demonstration on game mechanics to friends. The rules for how to do this are leagues more strict in commercial works.

Of course this doesn't get into games no longer available or impossible to get. Hi Star Wars Rebellion. Great game, one of the best but the price tag is intense and it's not even being sold anymore, at least not officially. So how are you suppose to get it? Companies can't just claim copyright over something well after they discontinue any use of it for good. Software only gets away with it because of the engine being used in multiple products.


TL;DR: No one looks down on you for this. Some games are price-wise off the table and the only way to experience or demo it at all is sharing it with friends, on or off TTS. Sometimes games aren't available or just so old there's no way to ever get it, or it's too fragile to be dragging it from across the continental U.S. Just be reasonable and not lazy. If you want to play sheriff o nottingham and host the game, go buy it, it's not that expensive.

[videomike_Ultimate_Plushie]

Originally posted by Philippe_at_bay:

Digital games don't even come close to delivering the visual and tactile satisfaction of a well-made physical board game with high production values. But you don't have to explain to your wife where you're going to put it when you're running out of storage space.

There are several board games that I'm thinking of buying, but am trying them out in TTS to see if I like them enough to spend forty to eighty bucks on them (my price point for digital games is usually less than twenty).

Eventually more board game companies will wake up to the fact that TTS modules are a fabulous marketing tool. Games with good production values can get expensive and take up storage space, and you'd better be sure you like one if you decide you want to own it.

I've been puttering around with Vassal for years, and TTS is much easier to get into.

This as well, well spoken.

[Hunter Wolf]

I just sometimes debate on this when a board game discord nags at me to no end saying I'm an unrepetant monster for talking about not owning the mods I play and they often threaten to ban me cuz I'm pirating by using TTS and mods I don't own in rl

[Baryonyx]

I find that quite disturbing and the logic is flawed. If I download a minigolf mod, would I have to own this very table in real life too? 3D print it? Or things like the kraken table and props, do I have to own such things too? What if I want to play a boardgame with figures, like Warhammer or Bolt action? Do I have to own the figures? The terrain pieces? The rulebook? Or all of them? It doesn't make sense.

[SaltyO]

whatever boardgame discords you are frequenting are filled with nincompoops who don't know ****