No reason to use drop kick

[ro0415]

So recently two new moves were added to gang beast: Drop kicks and head butting. Head butting is a powerful and easy to use move, but this makes dropkicks feel useless. For dropkicks to be more useful I think there has to be some other reasons to use it, other than just the damage it makes. My suggestion is that headbutting stays as it is and is used to do damage, while dropkicks don't do much damage, but instead, when you hit someone with a dropkick, they will get pushed away a few meters, so you can use dropkicks as a way to get people away from you or to push someone over a ledge.

If you have any other ideas to make the different moves in gangbeasts more diffreent from eachother, please comment so that the devs might see it.

[ro0415]

I also think that it should be more noticable when you do a headbutt or a dropkick. So when you do a headbutt your charcater thursts his head into your oponent quickly so you can see that it's a powerful move, or when you do a dropkick you can see your character charging his leg into you oponent in a way that makes you believe that what you just did is able to inflict some damage.

[Hackie P4ckie]

I'm gonna disagree, mainly because all I ever use are dropkicks. Mix dropkicks, punches and crouching together all at the same time and you end up jumping about 10 feet into the air before doing a ground pound type kick on whoever's below. Kicking is really godamn effective.

Also, kicking is already a pretty effective way of pushing people. Especially people that get knocked out near an edge. Kick them whilst they're knocked out and they'll fly pretty far.

Regardless, kicking has been pretty useful for me in a lot of situations, such as the time where I regained consciousness and kicked my friend right through the window of the elevators map, or for those moments when someone is holding onto you whilst dangling and you can't use your hand to punch them off. Also, hanging from the roof and just kicking at whoever's below will deal massive damage, usually knocking them out in about two kicks.

Seriously, try it out a bit more. During combat, mash kick, punch, jump and crouch all at once and you'll ♥♥♥♥ up everyone around you.

[ro0415]

Postat inițial de Grizzly:

I'm gonna disagree, mainly because all I ever use are dropkicks. Mix dropkicks, punches and crouching together all at the same time and you end up jumping about 10 feet into the air before doing a ground pound type kick on whoever's below. Kicking is really godamn effective.

Also, kicking is already a pretty effective way of pushing people. Especially people that get knocked out near an edge. Kick them whilst they're knocked out and they'll fly pretty far.

Regardless, kicking has been pretty useful for me in a lot of situations, such as the time where I regained consciousness and kicked my friend right through the window of the elevators map, or for those moments when someone is holding onto you whilst dangling and you can't use your hand to punch them off. Also, hanging from the roof and just kicking at whoever's below will deal massive damage, usually knocking them out in about two kicks.

Seriously, try it out a bit more. During combat, mash kick, punch, jump and crouch all at once and you'll ♥♥♥♥ up everyone around you.

I'm not talking about normal kicking, i'm talking about dropkicking (even though normal kicking could use a buff). There is no reason to use dropkicks instead of headbutts, because they are just as easy to do and headbutts do more damage, so dropkicks need another reason to be usefull. And you saying that spamming all the buttons is effective is true, but it would be just as effective if I spammed all buttons except kick, and spamming all the buttons is often very buggy and has in many cases insta-knocked out my opponents. Boneloaf has said many of these erratic bugs will go away when they lower the character masses in an upcoming update.

[ColossalCereal]

From experience I think they are both very powerful, it's just that dropkicks are harder to use. The purpose of a drop kick in real life is to jump and use your legs to kick someone to knock them over, and the equivalent to that in Gang Beasts would be knocking them out after one kick. Almost everytime, dropkicks will hit your enemies, but they don't usually knock them out. I was experimenting with headbutting and drop kicking yesterday (I usually compare them a lot), and I found out that it is possible to knock out another NPC or player from one drop kick. I took a running start, jumped when I was close to them, held down the kick button, then I hit them in their chest and they were down immediately after being spawned in. So there are clearly more areas that are weaker than others, so I'd assume the areas for drop kicks to be effective would be the back, stomach, chest, and head. For headbutting, it is much simpler to use, because it seems to be much more accurate and even coming in contact with your enemies is easier with it. Overall, I think they are both very powerful, but drop kicking is just harder to do.

[Hackie P4ckie]

Postat inițial de ro0415:

I'm not talking about normal kicking, i'm talking about dropkicking (even though normal kicking could use a buff). There is no reason to use dropkicks instead of headbutts, because they are just as easy to do and headbutts do more damage, so dropkicks need another reason to be usefull. And you saying that spamming all the buttons is effective is true, but it would be just as effective if I spammed all buttons except kick, and spamming all the buttons is often very buggy and has in many cases insta-knocked out my opponents. Boneloaf has said many of these erratic bugs will go away when they lower the character masses in an upcoming update.

No, you clearly haven't seen the kind of devastating aerial ace type ♥♥♥♥ you can do with dropkicks when you start spamming buttons. There's some awesome midair backflip, Chuck Norris roundhouse kick type of stuff you can do.

I'm not gonna deny that dropkicks are pretty hard to pull off, but they're still really useful when you mix them with other types of attacks. Also, the ability to do a backflip is also really important.

[ro0415]

Postat inițial de Grizzly:

Postat inițial de ro0415:

I'm not talking about normal kicking, i'm talking about dropkicking (even though normal kicking could use a buff). There is no reason to use dropkicks instead of headbutts, because they are just as easy to do and headbutts do more damage, so dropkicks need another reason to be usefull. And you saying that spamming all the buttons is effective is true, but it would be just as effective if I spammed all buttons except kick, and spamming all the buttons is often very buggy and has in many cases insta-knocked out my opponents. Boneloaf has said many of these erratic bugs will go away when they lower the character masses in an upcoming update.

No, you clearly haven't seen the kind of devastating aerial ace type ♥♥♥♥ you can do with dropkicks when you start spamming buttons. There's some awesome midair backflip, Chuck Norris roundhouse kick type of stuff you can do.

I'm not gonna deny that dropkicks are pretty hard to pull off, but they're still really useful when you mix them with other types of attacks. Also, the ability to do a backflip is also really important.

Sorry, but i think it's pretty boring going around spamming the buttons to gleitch the game to my advantage, and i prefer to find different tactics that will help me win a fight, and dropkicks have been the least useful attack in all of them. Yeah, you can do a backflip that doesn't do anything else than that, and you are just saying that the best thing to do in this game is just run at your oponent and spam the buttons.

[ro0415]

Postat inițial de EXtothePERT:

From experience I think they are both very powerful, it's just that dropkicks are harder to use. The purpose of a drop kick in real life is to jump and use your legs to kick someone to knock them over, and the equivalent to that in Gang Beasts would be knocking them out after one kick. Almost everytime, dropkicks will hit your enemies, but they don't usually knock them out. I was experimenting with headbutting and drop kicking yesterday (I usually compare them a lot), and I found out that it is possible to knock out another NPC or player from one drop kick. I took a running start, jumped when I was close to them, held down the kick button, then I hit them in their chest and they were down immediately after being spawned in. So there are clearly more areas that are weaker than others, so I'd assume the areas for drop kicks to be effective would be the back, stomach, chest, and head. For headbutting, it is much simpler to use, because it seems to be much more accurate and even coming in contact with your enemies is easier with it. Overall, I think they are both very powerful, but drop kicking is just harder to do.

There is no way to acuratly target which part of the body you want to hit, but in the heat of a battle, most people will resort to headbutts instead of dropkicks 99% of the time, beacuse there is not enough reason to use dropkicks. However, if dropkicks were modified so they would be used to kick your oponents away from you or over a ledge (and i'm talking about getting pushed back multiple meters) , this would quickly change and dropkicks would be used much more often. Different moves need different reasons to be used, other than just to inflict damage to make people use them.

[Hackie P4ckie]

Postat inițial de ro0415:

Postat inițial de Grizzly:

No, you clearly haven't seen the kind of devastating aerial ace type ♥♥♥♥ you can do with dropkicks when you start spamming buttons. There's some awesome midair backflip, Chuck Norris roundhouse kick type of stuff you can do.

I'm not gonna deny that dropkicks are pretty hard to pull off, but they're still really useful when you mix them with other types of attacks. Also, the ability to do a backflip is also really important.

Sorry, but i think it's pretty boring going around spamming the buttons to gleitch the game to my advantage, and i prefer to find different tactics that will help me win a fight, and dropkicks have been the least useful attack in all of them. Yeah, you can do a backflip that doesn't do anything else than that, and you are just saying that the best thing to do in this game is just run at your oponent and spam the buttons.

Well it is... That's the thing. Trying to do things "Tactically" doesn't work, and you're likely to just have the ♥♥♥♥ kicked out of you by whoever you're playing against. Whatever tactics you try, people will just grab you and punch you until you go down. There aren't "Tactics" to follow. I just mix kicks with spamming and do some awesome aerial ace type of stuff. Other than that, there's not much else you can do.

[ro0415]

Postat inițial de t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m:

Postat inițial de ro0415:

Sorry, but i think it's pretty boring going around spamming the buttons to gleitch the game to my advantage, and i prefer to find different tactics that will help me win a fight, and dropkicks have been the least useful attack in all of them. Yeah, you can do a backflip that doesn't do anything else than that, and you are just saying that the best thing to do in this game is just run at your oponent and spam the buttons.

Well it is... That's the thing. Trying to do things "Tactically" doesn't work, and you're likely to just have the ♥♥♥♥ kicked out of you by whoever you're playing against. Whatever tactics you try, people will just grab you and punch you until you go down. There aren't "Tactics" to follow. I just mix kicks with spamming and do some awesome aerial ace type of stuff. Other than that, there's not much else you can do.

Exaclty, at this point the best way to win is by spamming, and i don't want that to be the case. I want there to be a reason for people to use specific moves. So instead of just running at people while spamming every buttton, they may think twice and decide to do a planned attack because it will be easier to win that way. Imagine you're fighting ontop of the elevators on the elevator stage. Normally you'd just go running into your opponent while spamming every button, but if this change was implemented, and dropkicks would push characters multiple meters away from you, people might go, "wait a second, I can win this fight without throwing a single punch and whitout knocking my opponent uncocious at all. I can just use a dropkick on him and push him off the edge."

[Hackie P4ckie]

Postat inițial de ro0415:

Postat inițial de t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m:

Well it is... That's the thing. Trying to do things "Tactically" doesn't work, and you're likely to just have the ♥♥♥♥ kicked out of you by whoever you're playing against. Whatever tactics you try, people will just grab you and punch you until you go down. There aren't "Tactics" to follow. I just mix kicks with spamming and do some awesome aerial ace type of stuff. Other than that, there's not much else you can do.

Exaclty, at this point the best way to win is by spamming, and i don't want that to be the case. I want there to be a reason for people to use specific moves. So instead of just running at people while spamming every buttton, they may think twice and decide to do a planned attack because it will be easier to win that way. Imagine you're fighting ontop of the elevators on the elevator stage. Normally you'd just go running into your opponent while spamming every button, but if this change was implemented, and dropkicks would push characters multiple meters away from you, people might go, "wait a second, I can win this fight without throwing a single punch and whitout knocking my opponent uncocious at all. I can just use a dropkick on him and push him off the edge."

That's what I'd like too. More strategy. I can agree with you on that. Being able to push an enemy back a certain distance would be useful, especially for a map like elevators. I've pulled off some cool dropkicks from one elevator to the next, yet, they just hit, took off a bit of health and then the fight continued with spamming.

Regardless, I don't think spamming will ever become an underpowered form of combat, sadly.

Also, don't mind my sudden change. I'm in my trolling guise.

[ro0415]

Postat inițial de t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m:

Postat inițial de ro0415:

Exaclty, at this point the best way to win is by spamming, and i don't want that to be the case. I want there to be a reason for people to use specific moves. So instead of just running at people while spamming every buttton, they may think twice and decide to do a planned attack because it will be easier to win that way. Imagine you're fighting ontop of the elevators on the elevator stage. Normally you'd just go running into your opponent while spamming every button, but if this change was implemented, and dropkicks would push characters multiple meters away from you, people might go, "wait a second, I can win this fight without throwing a single punch and whitout knocking my opponent uncocious at all. I can just use a dropkick on him and push him off the edge."

That's what I'd like too. More strategy. I can agree with you on that. Being able to push an enemy back a certain distance would be useful, especially for a map like elevators. I've pulled off some cool dropkicks from one elevator to the next, yet, they just hit, took off a bit of health and then the fight continued with spamming.

Regardless, I don't think spamming will ever become an underpowered form of combat, sadly.

Also, don't mind my sudden change. I'm in my trolling guise.

Good we can agree on that. I really hope that one day different moves will be unique and useful enough so that people will plan their moves a bit more carefully so that spamming isn't as op. I also hope that the devs find a way to make it so that using the environment to kill your opponents becomes a much more tactical and smart way to defeat your opponents.

The could also make it so that specific moves affect specific things in the environment, so for instance, if you dropkicks something with low mass (a box for example) it would go flying, and if that item hits someone it will take away a chunk of their health.

[Bio Drando]

Spamming should be nerfed once the stamina gets re-added (so that your character will get tired after attacking continosly and spamming would drain all of your stamina almost instantly) and improved: the more you get tired and the shorter your maximum stamina will be, so if you spawn attacks like a maniac as soon as you get some stamina back the maximum stamina level of your character's stamina will start to slowly decrease, after some time you would be able to keep a smaller amount of stamina than the one at the start of the match and you would get tired super easily if you start spamming (and people who fought strategically without doing it would have a lot bigger maximum stamina level than you and you would be in great disadvantage...)

To improve attack I could suggest to:
PUNCHES: i think they're already OK, no changes needed... (the stamina will nerf them later on)
GRABS: like for the punches, the stamina will nerf them automatically (look at what I said about the planned stamina system...)
THE KICKS: the devs themselves said that they made kicks specifically ror kicking florred opponents and pushing them down ledges without railings, they can be uset to hit people's private parts though and this can stun them pretty easily (even if getting the attack to hit the enemy can be really hard) but the devs are aiming for the punches as the standard attack in battles. The double kick you do when kicking in mid-air has a higher chance of landing but is less precise overall)
DIVING HEADBUTTS: they are REALLY powerful, probably the most powerful single attack in the game (the devs also said that they will allow the characters to give standing headbutts while pressing the crouch button twice when you're grabbing something with both hands)


You can have a look at this guide I made for looking at all of the possible single attacks and attack combinations currently avaible in the game:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=475996635

[ro0415]

Postat inițial de RainbowGamerLite:

Spamming should be nerfed once the stamina gets re-added (so that your character will get tired after attacking continosly and spamming would drain all of your stamina almost instantly) and improved: the more you get tired and the shorter your maximum stamina will be, so if you spawn attacks like a maniac as soon as you get some stamina back the maximum stamina level of your character's stamina will start to slowly decrease, after some time you would be able to keep a smaller amount of stamina than the one at the start of the match and you would get tired super easily if you start spamming (and people who fought strategically without doing it would have a lot bigger maximum stamina level than you and you would be in great disadvantage...)

To improve attack I could suggest to:
PUNCHES: i think they're already OK, no changes needed... (the stamina will nerf them later on)
GRABS: like for the punches, the stamina will nerf them automatically (look at what I said about the planned stamina system...)
THE KICKS: the devs themselves said that they made kicks specifically ror kicking florred opponents and pushing them down ledges without railings, they can be uset to hit people's private parts though and this can stun them pretty easily (even if getting the attack to hit the enemy can be really hard) but the devs are aiming for the punches as the standard attack in battles. The double kick you do when kicking in mid-air has a higher chance of landing but is less precise overall)
DIVING HEADBUTTS: they are REALLY powerful, probably the most powerful single attack in the game (the devs also said that they will allow the characters to give standing headbutts while pressing the crouch button twice when you're grabbing something with both hands)


You can have a look at this guide I made for looking at all of the possible single attacks and attack combinations currently avaible in the game:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=475996635

Yes, hopefully the stamina will fix a lot of problems, as long as it's implemented correctly. Still, I want an option to disable stamina for climbing, and if it is enabled, I think that the stamina should be drained incredibly slowly when you're climbing, because if it drains quickly the climbing will be useless.

Here are my suggestions to improve attacks:

-PUNCHES:
I think they're too powerful in their current state. The fact that they are so powerful discourages the use of any other moves or tactics. I think the punches felt really balanced in the 0.0.3 build. I think that it should take about 10 punches if you're just standing still to drain all the health from someone and knock them out (but i still like the occansional insta-knock out).
-GRABS:
I think they're good as it is, because you can just punch your way out of it, but if punches are nerfed grabs will need a stamina bar to be balanced properly.
-KICKS:
I don't think they're powerful enough. For them to be useful at pushing people over an edge they need a bit more force, but not too much. I also think they should make people lose their grip if you kick them while you're climbing and they are below you.
-DROP KICKS:
As I said in the main post of this descussion, I think that dropkicks should be use as a way to push people far waya from you and as a way to kick someone over an edge when they're close enough too it. I think that landing a succesful dropkicks should push people away several meters, but I also think it should drain 75% of your stamina (no matter if you miss or hit) when stamina is implemented, so you have to be sure you'll hit or esle you are going to have a problem because you don't have much stamina left to defend yourself.
-IDEA FOR DROPKICKS, NORMAL KICKS OR BOTH
I don't know if I want this idea to be implemented dro dropkicks, normal kicks or both, but the idea is: when you kick/dropkick something with low mass like a box, that box will get pushed multople meters away from you, and if you hit someone with that box it will damage them. This would be a great way to make items more useful. Do you think it should be possible to do this for kicks, dropkicks, both or not at all?
-HEADBUTTS
I think that it's appropriate that headbutts do a lot of damage, but I think this move should also take away 75% of your stamina so it isn't OP. I also like the idea of being able to do a headbutt without diving. I think the headbutt you do while grabbing someone with both hands and double tapping circle/B should only drain 40% of your stamina as it will be much harder to pull off.

[Puss in Boots]

They should make it so that falling on different parts of your body should make a difference to the damage so if you were to fall 3 meters on your head you would take alot of damage or be knocked out. Compared to falling 3 meters on your back/ass, and being slightly damaged. Making headbutts riskier than drop kicks. I also agree that drop kicks should be used to push opponents instead of dealing damage. The idea of kicking/moving items to do damage is a good concept in my opinion.

[Chapstronaut]

"Tactics" and Gang Beasts... lolwut.

I'm actually having the opposite problem OP is. Dropkicks are SUPER effective for me, whereas headbutts... not so much. Granted: headbutts are a lot of fun, for me, they usually take 4 or 5 tries to actually land. Maybe I'm not doing it right or something, but the dropkick certainly seems MUCH more effective, for me. Could be a preference thing? Could be an approach issue? Dunno. But it all feels really solid, as is. Not saying headbutts aren't working-- because they are, but really, I've only ever had any luck using them when it comes down to close quarters grappling, and only if punches aren't doing the trick. I've had the best luck with drop kicks when running at someone from a distance, and using it as my starting attack.

I'm not too keen on the stamina idea. Been playing with a friend of mine for a while now with stamina off, and it's been absolutely amazing. The matches don't seem to last long enough for me to question whether or not it's believable that the green guy has been dangling off of a ledge since the beginning, or that the yellow fellow over there has been wailing non-stop on blue.

My only complaint: MOAR! When I found out about headbutts and dropkicks, I played Gang Beasts with an uncontrolable, childlike sqealing that rivaled the time when I first played the beta before it even hit Steam, almost a year ago now, I suppose. I LOVE these new moves, and I'm just really hoping that there's going to be more of them in the future. Or maybe: fighting styles? Stances? Something like that would be great. If "kung fu" becomes an option, I will wet myself in hysterical laughter as I try to emulate the fight between Neo and Agent Smith on the subway platform.