Base-building in DoW III

[Gorbles]

I'm going to try a focused discussion topic. Dissenting opinions are welcomed, off-topic posting is not. This topic is very specifically about base-building in DoW III, and comparisons to past games.

Why do people keep saying it is "dumbed down"?

Before Annihilation Mode was released, people criticised the lack of buildable defenses and multiple HQ buildings. You now have a game mode that offers explicitly that.

In the regular Power Core mode, you have various unit-producing buildings, often a support structure (Waaagh Tower, Webway Gate), a research structure and the ability to Tier up through these, unlocking more options and abilities.

The only thing we seem to be missing at this point is Minefields, and I would seriously argue as to the lack of Mines being the reason base-building in DoW III is "dumbed-down".

Are people taking literal building count comparisons and saying there is a lack of depth because in vDoW you might have had one additional building?

Are people simply disappointed in the DoW II resource model with Generators being out on the field?

What are your opinions?

[jonoliveira12]

People expected a few more buildings, and for turrets to not be a doctrine choice.

[LighT]

Power core is cool, but ppl like the traditional way of annihilate. But once you get used to power core it creates some cool situtaions and nerfs rushers and invites more strategic play.

[HighLanderPony]

They probably miss those 1-2 buildings that only had research in them or built 1-2 specific units like Apoths and Librarians. Since those could be elites now, there's no need for those buildings.

I also don't see how it's dumbed-down. There isn't even a command zone restriction like there was in DoW 1 any more. If anything, it lets you build more freely than in the previous games.

Guess people just really like building stuff, even if it barely serves an actual purpose. Cookie clicker and all that. :P

[Gorbles]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

People expected a few more buildings, and for turrets to not be a doctrine choice.

I know you didn't say whether it was good or bad either way, but I like them being a Doctrine slot. It really means you have to think about their addition, instead of simply spamming them when you have the resources to.

It also offers options for a) different Turret types and b) balancing them upwards against the general strength curve of Elites.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Gorbles:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

People expected a few more buildings, and for turrets to not be a doctrine choice.

I know you didn't say whether it was good or bad either way, but I like them being a Doctrine slot. It really means you have to think about their addition, instead of simply spamming them when you have the resources to.

It also offers options for a) different Turret types and b) balancing them upwards against the general strength curve of Elites.

People liked to Sim City their bases. What can I say?

[Delete]

Yes, i am dissapointed in energy gathering model, good old Generator with updates for them was great.

I completely don't like idea of turrets bein doctrines, cause its obligatory part of base building part.

For me, in a sequel of a game that i liked, i expecting almost same gameplay but with more stuff and deeper work on detail. I completely don't like cut offs, if something didn't worked in first game, don't cut it off, make it WORK.

I am great fan of RTS with basebuilding. I simply don't play RTS without such important part for me. World in Conflict, Joint Task Force, Codename Panzers and Even Dawn of War 2, i tried them and completely didn't like them.

I say, my personal favourite game, GAME ABOVE ALL GAMES, is Command & Conquer Generals + Zero hour. Thats my love.
Age of empires 1/2/3, Age of mythology, Black & White 2, Command & conquer Generals/Red alert 2, Dune 2000, Earth 2160, Emperor:Battle for dune, Empire earth 2, KKnD, Paraworld, Populous the begining, Rise of nations:Rise of legends, Spellforce 1, Supreme commander, The Settlers 6/7, Warhammer 40k Dawn of war, Warzone 2100. I can continue without stoping.

I was shocked from DoW2, but i manage to restore myself and erase it from my memory, it simply think its not exist.(Stronger shock for me bein from what happened with poor C&C Generals 2, wich turnet into F2P and been closed. Thank God it was close, it was so bad.)
When DoW3 was announced and basebuilding been confurmed, i prayed, i begged everything in the world PLEASE be atleast as in first DoW. I didn't asked it to be deeper, with MORE building, and much Deeper upgrate tree, i beeged it to be atleast like in DoW1. But unfortunatly i see what see. No annihilation from the start, power core mode that doesn't look interesting at all. And yes basebuilding, that looks so..........empty-shelled.

I can deal with only 3 factions, okay let be, i can deal with artstyle, its weird but okay GRAPHIC IS NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL, i can deal with singleplayer story that almos don't have good cutscenes and only most of a time you watchin static pichtures, its BAD but okay let it be. But i can't deal with gameplay that doesn't look interesting, and not only that but gives extremely strong feeling of dissapointment if i look at such interesting games called DoW Soulstorm\Dark Crussade

P.S. Im loosing hope for DoW3. It almost lost, but not completely, maybe after year starting from today game turnet into something beatifull. but right now it not even close to that.

P.S.S Sorry for such long post, when thing touchin RTS and Basebuilding i can't keep myself quiet. And sorry for my bad English.

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Delete:

Yes, i am dissapointed in energy gathering model, good old Generator with updates for them was great...

Gens being in the base safely just meant tech cheese tactics and whatnot. That's enjoyable? It was 6 buildings plopped down per HQ in a bunch.

The rest of it just seems like general complaints about 'not enough base building'. Sounds like you want this fish to climb a tree. DoW was never huge on base building, by design. It won't be your AoE, or SC or WC, or whatever. It didn't intend to be, chalking that up as a flaw is unfair.

As for the game looking bad and being on the fence about it. Trying something is completely different from looking at it, so you might wanna do that. Then again, if you're a big fan of base building, you won't find a focus on that in this game.

[Gorbles]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by Gorbles:

I know you didn't say whether it was good or bad either way, but I like them being a Doctrine slot. It really means you have to think about their addition, instead of simply spamming them when you have the resources to.

It also offers options for a) different Turret types and b) balancing them upwards against the general strength curve of Elites.

People liked to Sim City their bases. What can I say?

I had an idea for a vDoW that would quite literally turn basebuilding into SimCity. Requirements of building structures next to each other, hopefully designed within what vDoW allowed mechanically.

Never got a chance to implement it though, and my vDoW modding days are kinda behind me at this point.

Never quite got that impression out of vDoW base-building, either way. It's interesting to me to see the amount of people that valued it for such. Like, genuinely interesting. Relic have already shown they're capable of putting out content based solely on player reactions, and the ability to add divergent game modes (and mechanics) seems much easier in DoW III (advantage of a more modern engine).

[Charlando[SunsOfStmChrts]]

I'd like to see some more answers on this as well.

For example if you compare to SM buildings in DOW I think the only buildings actually missing were turrets - and we have those now.

Theres no orbital relay, but you don't need it.

Possibly mines, if you want to count that.

Are there better examples with the other factions?

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by CharlndoChaosWKoT(FranknLord):

I'd like to see some more answers on this as well.

For example if you compare to SM buildings in DOW I think the only buildings actually missing were turrets - and we have those now.

Theres no orbital relay, but you don't need it.

Possibly mines, if you want to count that.

Are there better examples with the other factions?

SM are missing the Sanctum or what (Librarian + Apoth + some spells). But whatever.

[Godseyeview]

scouts can place mines

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Godseyeview:

scouts can place mines

Good point.

[Sakhari]

The trouble with the criticism you see here (and just about anywhere else, really) is that, while people might have understandable reasons for disliking a game or certain features, they're usually not very good at putting those gripes into words. Instead, we wind up with a bunch of short, tangentially-related sound bites (like "It's a MOBA!", "Dumbed down!", "Gabriel's jump animation ruined everything!" etc). Of course, you have a few people just showing up the repeat the rhetoric once a day but there's not a whole lot to be done about that...

For many, "Dumbed down!" base-building, in a Dawn of War sense, might very well have just referred to the lack static defenses and for some, making them a doctrine-only choice might not have done enough to fix that problem.

Frustrating as it may be, I don't think taking the criticism literally is the way to go if you're looking to address the actual root of peoples' problems. When someone says "It's a MOBA!", what I hear is more along the lines of "I think line units are too fragile, elites stand out too much, end-game resource rates make units feel worthless in the resulting spammy brawl." Whether or not you agree with those gripes is a different story of course but they're a bit closer to the actual problems that I think people who don't stick around are having.

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Sakhari:

...

People should learn how to construct arguments if they wanted to be taken seriously. It's a written discussion, you have plenty of time to formulate your thoughts.

[Warsmith Honsou]

Dumbed down by removing the interesting upgrades and replacing it with generic health and damage upgrades that don't change the gameplay like cultists being viable as the first unit you produce but being completely viable the entire game because of weapon upgrades and seeing through stealth and still being cheap and good for taking or harassing enemy resource points. Instead of just having upgradable tactical marines that worked in dow 1 we have another building just for devastators only for the sake of adding another building.