Relic abandons DoW III

[SiamGuts]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-02-08-relic-leaves-dawn-of-war-3-behind-as-it-moves-on-to-new-projects

Looks like we won't get any new race or additional content guys.

[WarbringerVI]

Blitzwing eredeti hozzászólása:

So GW/40K isn't the first and not the last franchise to have lore inconsistency.

Thanks for saying the obvious.

And I can blame the Relic much as it stands, they are making a game which they claim they are fan of but they can't even check what's canon or not. Aren't you the one who shared that Relic manager or something like that saying how "Warhammer 40k is stupid" then claiming Relic wasn't the one who don't gave a f*ck about the universe at all?

It's not the time for backpaddleing.

[Blitzwing]

Chaplain Lithius eredeti hozzászólása:

Blitzwing eredeti hozzászólása:

So GW/40K isn't the first and not the last franchise to have lore inconsistency.

Thanks for saying the obvious.

And I can blame the Relic much as it stands, they are making a game which they claim they are fan of but they can't even check what's canon or not. Aren't you the one who shared that Relic manager or something like that saying how "Warhammer 40k is stupid" then claiming Relic wasn't the one who don't gave a f*ck about the universe at all?

It's not the time for backpaddleing.

1 you mean this video ?
Where the Phil Boulle was laughing, as the interviewer did call Warhammer 40K stupid?
it wasnt from me, but I still do remember it. here after 8.00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_QBkq1uMs4

2 A lot of community statements were here removed for certain reasons.

3 Yeah after the "games release" the puzzle pieces started slowly to come together.

[SHOGUN_YAMATO]

Mr. Red eredeti hozzászólása:

This game was dead out of the gates ... after playing it for a small bit i can instantly see why it failed. IT IS NOT ON PAR WITH DAWN OF WAR WINTER ASSAULT. That's what killed DOW2 and thats what killed DOW3 :maple2:

DOW2 was fine until DOW3 came out. I could find 3v3 automatch games no problem in DOW2 right unitl DOW3 came out.

[Rabe]

so they will never make any new races for the Game ? wtf .. Just want Money :D . never will buy a Game from that ..... Company Again -.-

[Kharos]

Okay moderator I guess i used too hard of a word

Phil made a false claim he fully understood the Warhammer 40,000 universe by experessing a huge fallacy of calling Space Marines "line units".

[Hurricane]

Careful now, the mods are enforce, they did some good work banning trolls, but i got a warning for saying the game is bad.

[fallenpally13]

Blitzwing eredeti hozzászólása:

Chaplain Lithius eredeti hozzászólása:

Ancient lore? You mean the lore from 2010? It's still canon, Sherlock. You are defending C.S. Goto's bullsh*t like every other author agrees with his views. He is a nobody in the 40k community for obvious reasons and as I mentionned before GW doesn't know the lore detailed as fans do since fans are the ones who read the books not the GW quality control teams, that work in marketting department but what do you know? You are the one who thinks mechanical limbs makes marines better than what they are without not even knowing how Iron Hands act or work.

Its even more Hilarious what they do with lore by Assassin Creed Mordor.
Em for real, how can a spider shape shift into a woman wtf.?
In the entire lore its only possible for "certain characters", why ?
Seriously did they need out of know where some kind of strong female character?

https://www.inverse.com/article/37331-middle-earth-shadow-of-war-lord-of-the-rings-canon

So GW/40K isn't the first and not the last franchise to have lore inconsistency.

Im just focusing on the campaign ( i guess you could use the other lore breakers Back flip Terminator Wearing BS) But if Relic had released this game before the Horus Heresy Novels and surge of 40k Science fiction books, people wouldnt have been disgusted with the lore of the game. Back even in DoW 2 people only knew what lore you could find in the Codex's which wasnt a hell of a lot.

My frustration with the single player game is that, they kept telling me how new this Game is and how it is so different; however, i see the oldest repeated story that feels more like a broken record "Orks invading a Imperial Outpost" even DoW 2 had the Tyranids as the major focus in the launch.

Relic's version of the 40k universe seems outdated able to please new folks to the 40k universe but bore the hell out of anyone that knows anything about the 40k universe.

The lore isnt that complicated of a mess as some make it out however there are exceptions: (*As stated by the Chaplain above, just stay away from CS Goto's interpreted writings*) Relic should have had no issues with this because they created their own Space Marine Chapter and can have them do just about anything as long as it works in the rules of that universe : example you might not be able to jump with the terminator armor but they could have teleported Gab two stories in the air and come crashing down which would of been a easy fix.

[Kruler]

Is that "True Bad", or "False Bad" because the game being BAD is hardly news, nor censoring the forums in an attempt to make it false news will make the bad game less bad and I am now struggling to fit the bad word in more than the 6 times I have so far, so that is bad, oh DOH ok 7 times I have said bad now, OH SNAP thats 8.

[Reuben]

Chaplain Lithius eredeti hozzászólása:

Reuben eredeti hozzászólása:

It seems as though you are crying over GW going past ancient lore and fluff that inevitably gets updated anyway.

Ancient lore? You mean the lore from 2010? It's still canon, Sherlock. You are defending C.S. Goto's bullsh*t like every other author agrees with his views. He is a nobody in the 40k community for obvious reasons and as I mentionned before GW doesn't know the lore detailed as fans do since fans are the ones who read the books not the GW quality control teams, that work in marketting department but what do you know? You are the one who thinks mechanical limbs makes marines better than what they are without not even knowing how Iron Hands act or work.

So you're saying that the people who write the lore/fluff and publish it (the same people who approved every aspect of DoW 3) are less knowledgeable about the lore/fluff than the fans? I don't see how, have you ever heard of unreleased material yet to be published as well (stuff about the fictional universe only known to GW and not the fans)?

Let's recap:

- WH40K has lore/fluff to support the possibility that everything in the game could actually be a thing, just not widespread.

- WH40K showcases how something is done in one particular set of circumstances and then showcases how it can be done differently in another set of circumstances which could end up being contradictory.

- The Codex Astartes is just a guideline, some chapters follow it strictly whilst others have a more loose approach.

- There are many circumstances surrounding Angelos and not just augments such as his artificial lower half.

- Not every planet has the same level of technology such as rare standard template constructs (discovered or undiscovered/hidden) or the same properties such as the level of gravity.

[Blitzwing]

fallenpally13 eredeti hozzászólása:

Blitzwing eredeti hozzászólása:

Its even more Hilarious what they do with lore by Assassin Creed Mordor.
Em for real, how can a spider shape shift into a woman wtf.?
In the entire lore its only possible for "certain characters", why ?
Seriously did they need out of know where some kind of strong female character?

https://www.inverse.com/article/37331-middle-earth-shadow-of-war-lord-of-the-rings-canon

So GW/40K isn't the first and not the last franchise to have lore inconsistency.

Im just focusing on the campaign ( i guess you could use the other lore breakers Back flip Terminator Wearing BS) But if Relic had released this game before the Horus Heresy Novels and surge of 40k Science fiction books, people wouldnt have been disgusted with the lore of the game. Back even in DoW 2 people only knew what lore you could find in the Codex's which wasnt a hell of a lot.

My frustration with the single player game is that, they kept telling me how new this Game is and how it is so different; however, i see the oldest repeated story that feels more like a broken record "Orks invading a Imperial Outpost" even DoW 2 had the Tyranids as the major focus in the launch.

Relic's version of the 40k universe seems outdated able to please new folks to the 40k universe but bore the hell out of anyone that knows anything about the 40k universe.

The lore isnt that complicated of a mess as some make it out however there are exceptions: (*As stated by the Chaplain above, just stay away from CS Goto's interpreted writings*) Relic should have had no issues with this because they created their own Space Marine Chapter and can have them do just about anything as long as it works in the rules of that universe : example you might not be able to jump with the terminator armor but they could have teleported Gab two stories in the air and come crashing down which would of been a easy fix.

Well lets take a simple look, what people did not like by DoW3
-1-lore
-2-Story
-3-design


Here comes pure speculation, but let's put the puzzle pieces together.
So who was assigned to that jobs ?
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/warhammer-40000-dawn-of-war-iii/credits


-1-lore: CS Goto ?

Well he was for sure in the past assigned to Relics team
so you can't deny his influence on the Series.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassern_S._Goto
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/C.S._Goto

-2- Story
Lead Campaign Designer= Brent Disbrow
He was before working on sports games and most missions
are literally designed where you follow a line from A to B, than to C.
Where you have to wait long for resources to be generates, which takes some time.
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,7640/

-3-design
According to mobygames this people did for the first time work on an RTS.
Lead Campaign Designer Brent Disbrow
Lead Animator Nick Unden
Lead Character Artist Yvi Mendoza


Art Team
Concept Art Felix Bernard, Graeme McCormack
Units Shih-Kai Chang, Gabriel Kessler, Lee Salo

Animation Team
Craig Eickhoff, Eric Luhta, Cecilia Zermeno Velasco, Dylan Kurp

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now it comes to Game Director Philippe R. Boulle.

Nobody is expecting him to have knowledge of the lore like a Chapter Librarian,
But considering who was assigned to his team, who is surprised they had a problem,
to reconnect with the old audience?


I mean its not like they did not check what they were doing, but we have seen how much professional paid reviews know about RTS and 40K lore in general.

And there is a massive "pressure" from third parties on RTS games developers, which does already for years misguide our genre.


We have seen by Relic simply something happening , like by all other RTS developers,
its was merely a question of time, till they too would be forced/brainwashed to make such game like DoW3.

[Blitzwing]

It's actually a pretty old and common mistake in the genre.

Corporate Suits enforce already for years,
because of Blizzard some kind of E-sporty/ Asymmetrical/Tactical game
which results in games E-sporty= low hit-points & simplified/
Asymmetrical=lack of content/ Tactical = lack of resources.

RTS are (sadly were) in first place solid arcade games, with reliable units, lots of content and more than enough resources to play them. After RTS genre was forced for some reasons to abandon its core structure, it started to fail, Corporate Suits can't realize it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets take for example GSC Game World.

Games developed
2000 — Cossacks: European Wars (RTS)
2001 — Codename: Outbreak
2002 — Cossacks: The Art of War (RTS)
2002 — Cossacks: Back to War (RTS)
2002 — Cossacks: Campaign Expansion (RTS)
2003 — Hover Ace (uk)
2002 — American Conquest (RTS)
2003 — American Conquest: Fight Back (RTS)
2003 — FireStarter (uk)
2004 — Alexander (RTS)
2005 — Cossacks II: Napoleonic Wars (RTS)
2006 — Cossacks II: Battle for Europe (RTS)
2006 — Heroes of Annihilated Empires (RTS)
2007 — S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl
2008 — S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Clear Sky
2009 — S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat
2016 — Cossacks 3 (RTS)

Cancelled

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2
Heroes of Annihilated Empires: Chapter 2
-------------------------------------------------------------------

So what happened by GSC Game World,
who had for 6 years make 5 RTS games/ +5 add-ons,
and suddenly abandoned RTS genre for over 10 years?


It comes all together to Heroes of Annihilated Empires.
It was so massive financial failure, they had to cancel an add-on lol.
But why ? This company did sell millions of copies of their RTS games,
has/had a dedicated follower base.




Heroes of Annihilated Empires
Has some mayor difference compared to their previous titles.
----It was much more simplified, you had by older games to manage gun powder
or your units were not able to shoot. or food, without it they would starve
for some reasons this was removed.
---much fewer just 4 asymmetrical factions +massive balance issues.
You had by older games lots of similar 20 nations


I mean it's a nice game, but because of fantasy setting it was fast nicknamed Cossacks Warcraft. It wasn't able to connect with the audience, while older historically realistic games sold millions.

[Blitzwing]

Another good example would be Rise of Nations Series.

Rise of Nations 2003/addon 2004 are pretty much an advanced version of Age of Empires.
With 24 factions a pretty neat historical game.
Sales of over 1 million copies, what can go wrong ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_Nations


Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends (2006) just 3 Asymmetrical factions, simplified gameplay
with a steam punk/magic /fantasy setting, was a failure. The steam punk faction was extremely overpowered = bad balanced.
sold one-third as many copies as its predecessor Rise of Nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_Nations:_Rise_of_Legends

Rise of Legends is really awesome fun high quality game.

Its just not what RTS people want.
While the old School designed game had no problem to sell properly.
As E-sporty/ Asymmetrical/Tactical game, Rise of Legends it had massive issues to meet the high standards for a such game, which only Starcraft/Warcraft can achieve.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvXF3oGy-iE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlB3vs6gnLQ

[Waclaw83]

Reuben eredeti hozzászólása:

So you're saying that the people who write the lore/fluff and publish it (the same people who approved every aspect of DoW 3) are less knowledgeable about the lore/fluff than the fans? I don't see how, have you ever heard of unreleased material yet to be published as well (stuff about the fictional universe only known to GW and not the fans)?

Let's recap:

- WH40K has lore/fluff to support the possibility that everything in the game could actually be a thing, just not widespread.

- WH40K showcases how something is done in one particular set of circumstances and then showcases how it can be done differently in another set of circumstances which could end up being contradicting.

- The Codex Astartes is just a guideline, some chapters follow it strictly whilst others have a more loose approach.

- There are many circumstances surrounding Angelos and not just augments such as his artificial lower half.

- Not every planet has the same level of technology such as rare standard template constructs (discovered or undiscovered/hidden) or the same properties such as the level of gravity.

Reuben, you are right but you seem to miss the point. "Lore" in our case is not a discussion of a bunch of fans on a convent, with all of us wearing hand made replicas of armors, bolters and swords. This was a bussiness decision on Relics part, regardless if it was strictly governed by Sega and/or GW or it wasn't. If you are willing to go against the part of your audience who are there for the "lore", you need to be sure the rest of the audience will enjoy whatever else you have in your product - visuals, gameplay etc.

Here we are today, and it's pretty safe to say Relic failed to deliver a product that would please both WH40K fans and competitive gameplay players enough to keep the game afloat and under development. That's how things look.

[Blitzwing]

Waclaw83 eredeti hozzászólása:

Here we are today, and it's pretty safe to say Relic failed to deliver a product that would please both WH40K fans and competitive gameplay players enough to keep the game afloat and under development. That's how things look.

Yes, it was predictable what people actually wanted DoW3 to be.
Yes, it was predictable people wont like the actual MOBA DoW3 .
And its obvious you don't get new people by redesign a franchise.

From customer perspective,
if he did not like the first game,
why should the second or third be a thing for him?
And if he liked the first one,
why should he like if second or third is completely different ?


Isn't it logical ? Not for Corporate Suits.



Problem is, what do people want from AoE4 and Coh3?
Can modern day Relic find it out? DoW3 leads to huge doubts about it.

-1- What is their actual plan to do to AoE4 ?
As usual, once information is out, it's too late to fix. Don't get me wrong,
but if they did Again E-Sport/cartoon the game and don't know some core features,
result might be same, even worse.

-2- What is the actual post-production plan? By RTS 1 or 2 balance patches can't be enough.
Sine release, it was obvious competitive game mod should be annihilation and Eldar rangers do need a nerf.

[Hurricane]

Relic have sent me like 4 surveys for COH3, theres questions asking about campaigns and such... they havent learnt no one buys these games to play solo...

Rise of legends was a cool game imo, it was ahead of its time, its not just about the game with some of them releases, its about the time of the release, that game had zero marketing for it, it was out the blue. The balance was horrible though and it wasnt like their previous games so took a while to understand how to play it.

DOW3 was expected, DOW3 was followed for years, DOW3 was hyped and DOW3 was horrible.

I suspect COH3 to be bad, i mean relic are bad, looking at their videos with the devs and such, they really have no idea about WH40k, why make a game you have no clue about? Get someone in who has a clue and work from him, if they did he would of instantly said WH40k doesnt work like that. SM units dont melt in seconds, FCs dont do backflips and crap.