Why do RTS games struggle ? What does went wrong by RTS games ? Analysis from RTS fan since 1994.

[Blitzwing]

Why do RTS games struggle ?
What does went wrong by RTS games ?

Analysis from RTS fan since 1994.


Well let me Introduce myself.
My hobby is to play games,
especially RTS games and over the course of years I have collected a lot of exemplars.

Beside mainstream titles, did you ever hear of these RTS War of the Worlds 1998, Atrox, Axis & Allies, Dark Planet Battle for Natrolis, Dragonshard, Stormrise, Conflict Zone, Kohan II: Kings of War and try many other indie Titles.
https://games.gamepressure.com/?KAT=9


If you are a fan to the genre,
you did maybe notice a certain Disturbance in the Force,
we are as RTS fans get less and less.

It's indeed a mystery for the genre, because we do see the developers not reaching the former numbers. There were always deadlines, real life, new approaches to the formula and other new invented subgenres. If we have to set a golden age for RTS I would aim between first C&C 1995 (Tiberium Dawn) till ironically last C&C Tiberium Twilight.

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Maybe meanwhile people are too smart to play RTS games ?
On the one hand we have learned to be better,
on the other hand RTS games do get actually dumber and dumber.


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Example 1: Total Annihilation, you can micro manage your units and with skill avoid to loose them, something other mass RTS games, dont have at all (Ashes Of The Singularity/planetary annihilation/supreme commander), it just mass and units do hit instant, (while in the older title they had certain momentum to turn around, target and fire. By water only maps, you could play the game with way less units and it was a game, that was never reached again.

Example 2: Age of Empires Economy. So are 4 resources and place storage building next to them too hard ? AoE3 did get rid of 1 resource + you don't need storage buildings, just a hint, at certain simplification point economy just stop to make sense.


Example 3 general map size like C&C, em meanwhile all RTS don't have a map you can call a battlefield. By less and less size its just make a blob and move only one direction left/right/north/south= win. In older games you could attack enemy base from 360° angle, from anywhere anytime. Scouting and planning are no part any more of strategy, start at random location on a random huge map like RA1 or AOE2 is meanwhile reduced to something that does not require any brain power, you know exactly where to go to find your enemy. That damages so many strategy options.

Example 4 unit abilities and rock/paper/scissors tactics.
Do you need there than a brain to play such game ? You simply spam an ability and reuse all time same unit vs same unit, modern RTS feels more like connect the dots for 5 year old, than a game where you think and plan. Just increase speed for connect the dots, doesn't make in intelligent. It's really difficult to make combat smart, but games where you loose instant your units for sure doesn't make a game smarter.

Example 5 using your memory = Shroud (AoE/C&C/Starcraft)
was replaced in all RTS by fog of war.
We all know that a territory you can't see is in the fog,
in old games you had an option that it was all dark=shroud.


Example 6, something is always too strong.
For some reasons it's there, just a certain unit or combination, that goes reduce games strategy to absurdity, where you always use only same tactic. In old games developer actually realised it, so moved most overpowered units behind some kind of lockable high age/tech level. RTS developer don't have the time unlike Blizzard to polish balance forever, so they did make some kind of fail save mechanics, recent developers dont understand.


Example 7, getting you attached to the game,
in old games they used narrators with good voice, ingame events to attach you to the situation that is happening. Go here, make this and kill object X, is the formula for any story , but how does it suppose to keep you a memory of the game ? If you played Starcraft, you for sure still do remember what happened as Jim Raynor did meet Kerrigan for the first time.

-Memorable moments somehow dont really happen any more.
-Story writing a lost skill I guess ?
-Morality choices ? Nah all fine, you the good guy.
-replay ability = zero, there is only one way.

You just don't have any real choices in the story. In Battle Realms I played by a friend, he was surprised to see me play a completely different campaign than him, it turned out on first mission I had attacked civilians instead of the bandits, so did join other faction with other story line. Problem is if there is zero story, it feels like wasted time
and by RTS you do first check out the story.
Already here would a lot of people give up on my games.



Example 8, why is lan a lost technology ?
Yes everybody does have internet, still there is nothing better than meet real people/friends and say them after winning, in your face I totally owned you by this game.

Example 9, -Why doesn't AI get better ?
It's not the first RTS people play and yeah, somehow you just don't see it in any RTS, an AI that is designed to act smart and play meta without cheating in resources.
Even script AI to be fun , is a task you don't see by lot of games.

My personal problem, I always beat the best AI after some day, by any game.
If you know the game, by most games AI doesn't even represent treat any more.


Example 10, where is the visible meta/balance task force for PvP?
So what ever proper name is for a team of best players and/or developers.

OK only Blizzard is doing this all the time,making videos and explaining every move,
for every unit and his abilities. Blizzard did set pretty high standards for PvP, they are logic for any RTS player, but can any other developer achieve this ?

People are smart and if there is no second valid opinion they can evaluate,
they start to make up certain conclusions and expectations from the game,
that do never occur, so people start to loose interest in the game or don't even give it a try.

######################################################


Maybe future RTS could break up this vicious cycle ?
Right now Indie don't have the skill and established Professional teams don't have the time.

[Blitzwing]

Escrito originalmente por svfn:

sometimes i wonder if it's all just a cash grab for us nostalgic RTS fans from the 90s, like their goal is to get the highest initial launch sales, then keep churning out DLC after. we don't get innovations or good gameplay anymore, but generic conservative RTS that is obviously made to follow the Starcraft model of e-sportz and unit blobbing.

Actually it is.

Just think for a moment after all that fails like Red Alert 3/Earth 2160/Empire Earth 3 = the most famous AAA RTS Series, do exact the same Errors by DOW3, it can only be done by people who don't know RTS games.

And if you dont know RTS games, you would simply look at the best selling one and say,
yep make a copy out of it. Greed, short production time and incompetence can't copy Starcraft. That's why it doesn't work.



In case of RTS games, they did never did something original.

As C&C was suddenly the best RTS in the 90tes, multiple developers did copy paste C&C all over again. KKND and KKND2, Earth 2140 and Earth 2150, Dark Reign: The Future of War and Dark Reign2, World War III: Black Gold, WarGames, Dark Colony, Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3, Warzone 2100 and so many others, were extreme copies of C&C.

Starcraft did stand out as unique, because everybody else was back there copy C&C.
So they started after Warcraft3, copy paste Starcraft/Warcraft, but there is one thing.

C&C is easy to copy, look just how 8 Bit Armies did go good without any kind of advertisement, modern day graphics or famous name. All the people need is a good a gameplay.

[TheBear]

Its because people want big scale stuff, total war series do pretty well in comparison, selling 100.000's of copies, usually a few million after a year or so.
Compare that to ANY rts of the last decade.

Some people will say "age of empires!", but those are either HD versions or remakes, which im looking forward too personally, but thats only because i grew up with it.

The people that like it smaller scale are the people born somewhere in the late 70's or early 80's. (like myself) that used to play C&C on LAN parties, those days are over.

It needs to be grand, its needs to be awesome and yeh, the 4X type games.
Which would suit 40k universe anyway.

I notice the people that dislike that suggestion are the ones that want it to be as close as the boardgames as possible.. so stick to boardgames? Boring as hell anyway.

[svfn]

Escrito originalmente por Blitzwing:

Escrito originalmente por svfn:

sometimes i wonder if it's all just a cash grab for us nostalgic RTS fans from the 90s, like their goal is to get the highest initial launch sales, then keep churning out DLC after. we don't get innovations or good gameplay anymore, but generic conservative RTS that is obviously made to follow the Starcraft model of e-sportz and unit blobbing.

Actually it is.

Just think for a moment after all that fails like Red Alert 3/Earth 2160/Empire Earth 3 = the most famous AAA RTS Series, do exact the same Errors by DOW3, it can only be done by people who don't know RTS games.

And if you dont know RTS games, you would simply look at the best selling one and say,
yep make a copy out of it. Greed, short production time and incompetence can't copy Starcraft. That's why it doesn't work.



In case of RTS games, they did never did something original.

As C&C was suddenly the best RTS in the 90tes, multiple developers did copy paste C&C all over again. KKND and KKND2, Earth 2140 and Earth 2150, Dark Reign: The Future of War and Dark Reign2, World War III: Black Gold, WarGames, Dark Colony, Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3, Warzone 2100 and so many others, were extreme copies of C&C.

Starcraft did stand out as unique, because everybody else was back there copy C&C.
So they started after Warcraft3, copy paste Starcraft/Warcraft, but there is one thing.

C&C is easy to copy, look just how 8 Bit Armies did go good without any kind of advertisement, modern day graphics or famous name. All the people need is a good a gameplay.

i would say that the Company of Heroes series brought something unique to the fold as well, it's a territorial RTS, with more complex mechanics lke cover, suppression, and destructible cover, using environments (snow, buildings, fences) to your advantage. tanks that take time to manuever instead of turning around 180 degress in an instant.

i was hoping DoW III would be an improvement on these mechanics since it's Relic.

oh and Dark Colony, i missed that old game, not on GoG.com also. i guess there's also the Battle for Middle Earth series where the bases are fixed/built on a 'stand' or platform. good thing BFME had veterency, i love racking up unit experience in it.

if only some RTS have morale like Total War haha, would be funny to see units waver at the sight of a tank.

[Blitzwing]

Escrito originalmente por svfn:

i would say that the Company of Heroes series brought something unique to the fold as well, it's a territorial RTS, with mechanics lke cover, suppression, and destructible cover, using environments (snow, buildings, fences) to your advantage.

i was hoping DoW III would be an improvement on these mechanics since it's Relic.

Look, it not the only franchise that was stripped away from what it does make unique,
dumbed down and completely abandoned for what it stands for.

As someone whom play RTS games, I am not surprised that it did happen by DOW3,
I just surprised it did take so long for them to be failed up this way too.



If we look for example at the first Victim of Starcraft Blueprinting. = Earth 2160.
All the puzzles pieces come together.



In year 1999, TopWare Interactive created one of the greatest Singeplayer RTS title.

Earth 2150 was designed to have a home base and transport your units to another map,
be played over several missions and carry over your units and upgrades.
Had a huge research tree and unit customizations.
Earth 2160 were just some missions and were compared to predecessor pretty fast done.


Earth 2150 had a solid equal base build like C&C Generals(again was 4 year older)
Base build/Balance in 2160 was just messed up, because some faction were able faster to build or needed less space. Even the Story like main protagonist turn into alien was copy pasted from Starcraft.

I love Earth 2160, the graphics are really great even by todays standards, but the gameplay and story design, were way worse than from its 6 year older precursor.


Earth 2160 did at no point need a 4rts alien faction , they were just messed up zerg copy.
Earth 2160 would have been way better with 2150 base build. And if all the resources were not wasted to make dumbed down bad balance Starcraft blueprint, they could have had made even a great Story design like in 2150. Where you carry your progress, units and resources over missions.

Its really sad, we know the developers do their best to make good games, but there is sadly somebody in charge who does not know what he is doing and if he is on a wrong trail, it's never going to end well. Its was the same foolish attempt to please the modern market,
by give up what RTS franchise do stand for. So it lost most of the fans it had.

[jonoliveira12]

Escrito originalmente por Blitzwing:

Escrito originalmente por svfn:

sometimes i wonder if it's all just a cash grab for us nostalgic RTS fans from the 90s, like their goal is to get the highest initial launch sales, then keep churning out DLC after. we don't get innovations or good gameplay anymore, but generic conservative RTS that is obviously made to follow the Starcraft model of e-sportz and unit blobbing.

Actually it is.

Just think for a moment after all that fails like Red Alert 3/Earth 2160/Empire Earth 3 = the most famous AAA RTS Series, do exact the same Errors by DOW3, it can only be done by people who don't know RTS games.

And if you dont know RTS games, you would simply look at the best selling one and say,
yep make a copy out of it. Greed, short production time and incompetence can't copy Starcraft. That's why it doesn't work.



In case of RTS games, they did never did something original.

As C&C was suddenly the best RTS in the 90tes, multiple developers did copy paste C&C all over again. KKND and KKND2, Earth 2140 and Earth 2150, Dark Reign: The Future of War and Dark Reign2, World War III: Black Gold, WarGames, Dark Colony, Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3, Warzone 2100 and so many others, were extreme copies of C&C.

Starcraft did stand out as unique, because everybody else was back there copy C&C.
So they started after Warcraft3, copy paste Starcraft/Warcraft, but there is one thing.

C&C is easy to copy, look just how 8 Bit Armies did go good without any kind of advertisement, modern day graphics or famous name. All the people need is a good a gameplay.

WW3 Black Gold, and Warzone 2100, were copies of the Earth series, not C&C.

[Blitzwing]

Escrito originalmente por jonoliveira12:

WW3 Black Gold, and Warzone 2100, were copies of the Earth series, not C&C.

Well Earth 2140 was a clone to C&C Series, so clone of a clone.

The best-selling RTS game is Warzone 2100 (Pumpkin Studios, 1999) for the PlayStation, with sales of 5.01 million as of 22 June 2013, according to VGChartz.
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/best-selling-console-real-time-strategy-game

As we can see anything that did copy C&C was pretty successful, most of clones got a sequel,
https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/fisk0/lists/c-c-clones-or-westwood-style-real-time-strategy-ga/90022/



how has it been in same time for clones for Blizzard stuff ?

Atrox 2002 was 1to1 copy of Starcraft but did anybody even like it ? No add-on or sequel.
https://games.gamepressure.com/game.asp?ID=5474
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXOiz7Onq34


Vital Device: Entrapped by the Queen 2001
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_wbmdtwIU8

Final Odissey from (Joymax) 1999
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4XYE0KtXlc


Primitive Wars 2001
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Wars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxwVCGT5wtM

Kingdom Under Fire: A War of Heroes 2001 did copy Warcraft2, but did anybody care ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Under_Fire:_A_War_of_Heroes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBtVabavCBY

Dark Planet: Battle for Natrolis 2002 did fail up on same route.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Planet:_Battle_for_Natrolis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU1ojbDkLP8


(Impact of Power) - Windows (July 31, 2001)
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/korea/part2/games-other8.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArYKjFAbdwk


And many, many other RTS did clone Starcraft, but it was some kind of all time a fail,
because we did see nobody actually making a sequel after a Starcraft/Warcraft clone.

[Blitzwing]

Why the heck dont RTS developers do RTS games the way it used to be ?

Is it really this hard to realize
-1- after all this failed MOBAs and Star/Warcraft Copies,
that RTS people don't want such stuff ?

-2- RTS games used to be a market for millions of players.
Just remember how good the old games were and still are.
Just remember for what RTS games do stand for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6dWWAZC8AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77CJY4PyhFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc00FmqND6c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2vm-QjK2xQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz2_MukY2sE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dkILIjs8J0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Q2EGM-cwI

[XTS]

Escrito originalmente por Blitzwing:

Why the heck dont RTS developers do RTS games the way it used to be ?

Is it really this hard to realize
-1- after all this failed MOBAs and Star/Warcraft Copies,
that RTS people don't want such stuff ?

-2- RTS games used to be a market for millions of players.
Just remember how good the old games were and still are.
Just remember for what RTS games do stand for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6dWWAZC8AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77CJY4PyhFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc00FmqND6c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2vm-QjK2xQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz2_MukY2sE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dkILIjs8J0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Q2EGM-cwI

Due to marketing, I imagine there are developers who know what to make but theres always a "marketing" team suggesting to the CEO that it simply wont sell and based on other proof (league of legends) they need to dumb it down to make it more "available" and add "hero" type units called elites if you like whos job it is to destroy the powercore and turret..

[Blitzwing]

Escrito originalmente por XTS:

Due to marketing, I imagine there are developers who know what to make but theres always a "marketing" team suggesting to the CEO that it simply wont sell and based on other proof (league of legends) they need to dumb it down to make it more "available" and add "hero" type units called elites if you like whos job it is to destroy the powercore and turret..

+1 Its somehow by all companies now.

Let me say other companies never had such Relic gameplay,
still the games did sell good, but suddenly they started to make weird choices.


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Actually this happened the same way by
C&C4 Tiberium twilight and Universe at War & Grey goo.
For some reasons Petroglyph/Electronic Arts were obsessed to make mobile bases.
A mobile base is dumber than a grounded one,
especially if the maps are small and you know where the resources are.


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A lot companies did try to make MMORTS, Petroglyph who invented as Westwood Studios RTS games, for some reasons did try several time to reinvent the wheel.
Battle Battalions, Victory Command, End of Nations and Victory WW2.
OK you can fail maybe one, but they fail 4 times to make MMORTS ? Why ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6-RIv3566E


I am a huge fan (RTS) Petroglyph Games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroglyph_Games

As RTS their Star Wars: Empire at War,
does beat by online numbers even 10 years younger DOW3.


But at best I don't understand why did they try 4 times in a row to make an MMORTS without base build. Mobile bases are not a solution either, even Desert of Kharak isn't really so great in sold numbers. Why have they wasted since 2007 so many years for games nobody did ask for and did forsaken what they truly are.

Maybe they are afraid to wake up Electronic Arts that would bring C&C licensed game back?
But Electronic Arts are so incompetent they killed off even Dead Space.


Petroglyph Games have the Team size and the Knowledge to make good AAA Graphics RTS games and they still know how to make the good gameplay like in 8 Bit Armies.
But for some reasons they don't do a AAA Graphics version of 8 Bit Armies.

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Eugen Systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Systems
https://steamspy.com/dev/Eugen+Systems

Act of War, R.U.S.E. and Wargame have a huge fan base of 500.000 till 800.000 people,
but Act of Aggression did only reach 150,36 and Steel Division 112,340.

They do smart games, you need brainpower to play them,
but their recent 2 new products did have less content and were way easier to play.

[XTS]

Yep Empire of war is a great game Im not surprised its doing better than DoW3 even this many years aftersits release, its things like its inter-plantery campaign that add a massive element of actual strategy.

The mobile base thing was stupid your right, its flashy gimicks and not fully thought through ideas that wreck games, best to slowly modify and improve allready existing mechanics rather than ditching them outright for untested replacements, the default MOBA objective for DoW3 could have been launched along side VP and An instead of by its self giving players no choice but to buy it or leave.

[Blitzwing]

Escrito originalmente por XTS:

Yep Empire of war is a great game Im not surprised its doing better than DoW3 even this many years aftersits release, its things like its inter-plantery campaign that add a massive element of actual strategy.

The mobile base thing was stupid your right, its flashy gimicks and not fully thought through ideas that wreck games, best to slowly modify and improve allready existing mechanics rather than ditching them outright for untested replacements, the default MOBA objective for DoW3 could have been launched along side VP and An instead of by its self giving players no choice but to buy it or leave.

you are right.

the problems are indeed
-1- "marketing" team suggesting + lead designers, who have no idea what they are doing
-2- not improve already existing mechanics
-3- replace (good mechanics), with untested, unpolished and broken ideas/mechanics.


I mean the interviews from Relic where they did say, we watched some DOTA2 videos and assumed to make RTS out of it with Warhammer licence sounded for anybody as a bad idea and the outcome DOW3 did surprise nobody.

Even there, for somebody who does play games MOBAs are actually a failed genre.
If we take DOTA2 and Blizzards MOBA out of the Picture, are mobas better in sales than RTS ?

RTS are around 100.000 till 300.000 Sold copies.
So even RTS at weakest, it still does generate money.
https://steamspy.com/app/290790
https://steamspy.com/app/281610
https://steamspy.com/app/318020

by the way Servo as RTS/MOBA Hybrid like DOW3, had just Owners: 4,254
https://steamspy.com/app/305510

How is it by MOBAs ?
Is any good game there, if we take
https://steamspy.com/
and this List
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiplayer_online_battle_arena_games

------------Dead/ servers shut down------------------------
2016 Warhammer 40,000: Dark Nexus Arena
2015 Infinite Crisis
2014 Adventure Time: Battle Party
2014 Dawngate Waystone Games
2014 Fates Forever
2012 Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes
2011 Rise of Immortals: Battle for Graxia
2010 Avalon Heroes
2010 Realm of the Titans




-------population by MOBAs---------------
Strife
Players in the last 2 weeks: 5,821
https://steamspy.com/app/339280

Prime World
Players in the last 2 weeks: 4,478
https://steamspy.com/app/235340

Panzar
Players in the last 2 weeks: 6,493
https://steamspy.com/app/240320

Guardians of Middle-earth
Players in the last 2 weeks: 1,692
https://steamspy.com/app/111900

Bloodline Champions
Players in the last 2 weeks: 896
https://steamspy.com/app/6370


Monday Night Combat
Players in the last 2 weeks: 1,354
https://steamspy.com/app/63200

######################################################

Well thats pretty lot of dead meat,
like by 50% the servers were shut down 1 year later,
or the other 40% have pretty small population.


Company of Heroes 2 had a solid player base of
Players in the last 2 weeks: 141,500
https://steamspy.com/app/231430

Company of Heroes 2 had more population than 90% of MOBAs combined.

To find the data you need like 15 min or 30 min, and you see there already how bad the MOBA genre is. Yes DOTA2/Blizzard MOBA has a lot of people, but beside them most of them are either dead or have low player numbers.


What the heck was the marketing doing ?