Low Hp, fast deaths, lore question

[Crymic]

I'm mostly fine with the game. But the MOST annoying thing for me is the instant deaths of the units. Grenade, explosives, area effects... nearly every units can die from a single blast. Is this normal in the lore? I mean, thick armored space marines should die this fast? Feel weird for me.
Sorry for my english, not my best :)

[Blacklight]

Nop totaly not table top friendly at least i play a tau host lauch like 30 missile on a squad of assault marine more than half hit and not a single dommage was taken no it's juts that space marine is so weak in this game after 2 DOW with them as main faction they buff like crazy eldar who was the weakest

[goka9696]

In the lore Space Marines are very strong and durable even without their armor, so them dying so fast is definetly not close to lore whatsoever.

[Bad Distraction Carnifex]

Space marines are the embodiment of quality over quantity. It takes a LOT to kill a Space Marine in their armor. If anything, Space Marines should be less numerous and a lot tougher.

[goka9696]

Originally posted by Bad Distraction Carnifex:

Space marines are the embodiment of quality over quantity. It takes a LOT to kill a Space Marine in their armor. If anything, Space Marines should be less numerous and a lot tougher.

Yup.

Afaik many people stopped even trying to use Tactical Marines due to how weak they are. Maybe build 2 squads in beginning and that's it

[DarthHammer]

While the exact degree of 'ardness varies, yes, SMs are usually able to take some punishment before going down in the fluff. However, that being said there are two things to keep in mind:

Most weapons in the 40K fluff have ludicrous degrees of lethality. Basically, the default infantry weapons of everyone but the Imperial Guard will rip a normal human appart instantly. In the particular case of the races in this game, you have SMs firing high caliber mico-rocket weapons, Orks firing what are essentially autocannons (by a RL standard) with a ROF of an assault rifle, and mono-mollecular energy sheathed 'nets' from the Eldar. So even with all the toughness of a Space Marine, the weapons in 40K can bring one down reasonably quickly.

And furthermore, Relic has a history of making the SMs a bit more squishy than the general fluff. (Going as far back as the original DoW1 intro.) So there's also that.

[Limz]

Originally posted by Blacklight:

Nop totaly not table top friendly at least i play a tau host lauch like 30 missile on a squad of assault marine more than half hit and not a single dommage was taken no it's juts that space marine is so weak in this game after 2 DOW with them as main faction they buff like crazy eldar who was the weakest

Anyone who plays table top Warhammer 40k knows that the lore NEVER matches the actual game play experience. Also, the lore contradicts itself depending on where and when; if Matt Ward is writing then Ultra Marines are the godliest thing ever or Grey Knights or whatever and the other chapters are just useless.

Tabletop things drop faster than they do in DoW 3; you can wipe out 32+ space marines in one turn with certain set ups depending on edition.

[Isofuse]

Originally posted by Limz:

Anyone who plays table top Warhammer 40k knows that the lore NEVER matches the actual game play experience. Also, the lore contradicts itself depending on where and when; if Matt Ward is writing then Ultra Marines are the godliest thing ever or Grey Knights or whatever and the other chapters are just useless.

Tabletop things drop faster than they do in DoW 3; you can wipe out 32+ space marines in one turn with certain set ups depending on edition.

Well said. All it takes is to roll a one.
Lore-wise battles were always a fast-paced, frenetic mess. People going on about how tough SM are, have to remember that that's comparing them to normal humans. In the world of 40k all that armor and genetic engineering doesn't amount to much in front of the mono-molecular weaponry of the Eldar, or the brute strength of an ork boy.

The scene in the intro showing an ork boy casually ripping off a SM's arm sums it up for me.

[Mihael]

Lets look at a few types of lore we have access to.

You have Codexes based on specific Factions, and you have Novels based on situations.

In Codexes, your chosen faction will be gods among men and/or are willing to sacrifice an unending supply of men to accomplish any goal (tyranids and impeiral guard)

In the Novels that are not hero of a faction specific. You get a far greater understanding of the strengths/weaknesses of the factions. One of my favorites for this is the "Eldar" book series.

*Spoilers~* In this novel, it has a massive battle going on across a craft world between Imperial Guard / Space Marines vs Eldar. The battle is pretty much half a book in itself, covering how the Eldar use their guardians/infantry to stall/kill the imperial guard, as the imperial guard force their way into the craftworld. Both sides having their expendable troops (Guardians + Lasgun Infantry) being slaughtered en masse.

The imperial guard slowly overwhelm the Eldar just due to low #'s of guardians available, and the eldar are forced to fall back using all the traps and grenades they can to stall the imperial guard.
The next portion of the battle is the Aspect Warriors with generic vhiecle support(Dire Avengers/Banshees/falcons/jetbikes etc) fighting against the imperial guards vehicle squadrons + support infantry and it coming to a standstill where the eldar on the defensive just can't be broken in their own craftworld.

At this point, Space Marines are brought in. Tactical Squads/Devastaor marines/assault marines working in tandem walk straight into the eldar lines, and a massive slaughter occurs across both lines with the eldar having to fall back almost immedaitely. The space marines take significant casualties, but inflict just as much on a well entrenched eldar position.

The eldar fall back to their last line of defense, where they had mobilized literally everything the craftworld has to offer. Wraithknight/ wraithblades/Phoenixlords/ fire prisms /wraithlords. The biggest most badass equipment the eldar can bring to bear is forced to be used to stem the space marines infantry advance.

The space marine advance is forced back to regroup, out comes the predators/land raiders with head librarian and chapter master taking to the front lines. The final push occurs, and is over almost instantly. The eldar forces are forced to abandon their final line of defense and scatter to the corners of the craftworld to fight as they may. They inflict severe casualties on the best the space marines have to offer, but the eldar just lack the amount of troops necessary to hold off a whole chapter of space marines and its imperial guard support.



The main take away lore wise, is that there is concrete "Tiers" of troops.
Guardsman Equivelant - WHich is pretty much 5-6+ Armor save, Anything stronger than a rock pierces their armor and kills them.

Space Marine Equivelant - Which is a 3-4+ Armor save. These guys can tear through Guardsman equivelant extremely easily, and usually survive them really well.

Terminator Equiveleants - 2+ Armor Saves and Invuln Saves - These guys are hard to kill with ranged weaponry that is held by infantry, and usually requires heavy vehicle weaponry or extremely massed firepower. They can dish through and slaughter anything in the game with great ease.

So when you are looking at a game like Dawn of War 3, and things dying "So fast", it is very true to the lore because of the troops we are using don't really exist in lore very much.

Like Space Marines and Eldar are extremely few in number, then you get into Wraithknights and Imperial knights being literally double digit quantities of them existing, and we are playing iwth them against like 20-30 space marines haha.

[FieserMoep]

Originally posted by Bad Distraction Carnifex:

Space marines are the embodiment of quality over quantity.

Actually Space Marines are the Mass-Production variant of the Custodes.
Though that is still quite good.

[DarthHammer]

Originally posted by FieserMoep:

Originally posted by Bad Distraction Carnifex:

Space marines are the embodiment of quality over quantity.

Actually Space Marines are the Mass-Production variant of the Custodes.
Though that is still quite good.

Hey! That's top secret Administratum information!

Commisar, execute this man at once!

[Harukage]

Originally posted by FieserMoep:

Actually Space Marines are the Mass-Production variant of the Custodes.
Though that is still quite good.

Nah, new custodes codex confirmed they are superhumans made out of the Emperor's geneseed. Each one personaly tailored with additional indidual modifications. None of them is similar another.
Astartes though are indeed were planed as mass produced geneticaly enchanced soldiers. They were supposed to act in huge legions with a full support of their own fleets and many armored vechicles. Modern space marines are a farcry of their former selves, acting in a way they were not realy designed to.

[FieserMoep]

Custodes use the genetic matrix of the Emperor.
The entire gene-seed thing was the improvement of the technology for the astartes in favor of mass production.
Thus Custodes don't use a Gene-seed and are, as you said, hand-crafted.
This limits their numbers yet improves their potential while Astartes can be created more easily yet don't come close to them.

Ergo: Astartes are the mass prodcution 3.0 Version of the Custodes since the 2.0 Thunder Warriors did not last that long...

[eldraco86]

Originally posted by LORD MICHAEL:

Lets look at a few types of lore we have access to.

You have Codexes based on specific Factions, and you have Novels based on situations.

In Codexes, your chosen faction will be gods among men and/or are willing to sacrifice an unending supply of men to accomplish any goal (tyranids and impeiral guard)

In the Novels that are not hero of a faction specific. You get a far greater understanding of the strengths/weaknesses of the factions. One of my favorites for this is the "Eldar" book series.

*Spoilers~* In this novel, it has a massive battle going on across a craft world between Imperial Guard / Space Marines vs Eldar. The battle is pretty much half a book in itself, covering how the Eldar use their guardians/infantry to stall/kill the imperial guard, as the imperial guard force their way into the craftworld. Both sides having their expendable troops (Guardians + Lasgun Infantry) being slaughtered en masse.

The imperial guard slowly overwhelm the Eldar just due to low #'s of guardians available, and the eldar are forced to fall back using all the traps and grenades they can to stall the imperial guard.
The next portion of the battle is the Aspect Warriors with generic vhiecle support(Dire Avengers/Banshees/falcons/jetbikes etc) fighting against the imperial guards vehicle squadrons + support infantry and it coming to a standstill where the eldar on the defensive just can't be broken in their own craftworld.

At this point, Space Marines are brought in. Tactical Squads/Devastaor marines/assault marines working in tandem walk straight into the eldar lines, and a massive slaughter occurs across both lines with the eldar having to fall back almost immedaitely. The space marines take significant casualties, but inflict just as much on a well entrenched eldar position.

The eldar fall back to their last line of defense, where they had mobilized literally everything the craftworld has to offer. Wraithknight/ wraithblades/Phoenixlords/ fire prisms /wraithlords. The biggest most badass equipment the eldar can bring to bear is forced to be used to stem the space marines infantry advance.

The space marine advance is forced back to regroup, out comes the predators/land raiders with head librarian and chapter master taking to the front lines. The final push occurs, and is over almost instantly. The eldar forces are forced to abandon their final line of defense and scatter to the corners of the craftworld to fight as they may. They inflict severe casualties on the best the space marines have to offer, but the eldar just lack the amount of troops necessary to hold off a whole chapter of space marines and its imperial guard support.



The main take away lore wise, is that there is concrete "Tiers" of troops.
Guardsman Equivelant - WHich is pretty much 5-6+ Armor save, Anything stronger than a rock pierces their armor and kills them.

Space Marine Equivelant - Which is a 3-4+ Armor save. These guys can tear through Guardsman equivelant extremely easily, and usually survive them really well.

Terminator Equiveleants - 2+ Armor Saves and Invuln Saves - These guys are hard to kill with ranged weaponry that is held by infantry, and usually requires heavy vehicle weaponry or extremely massed firepower. They can dish through and slaughter anything in the game with great ease.

So when you are looking at a game like Dawn of War 3, and things dying "So fast", it is very true to the lore because of the troops we are using don't really exist in lore very much.

Like Space Marines and Eldar are extremely few in number, then you get into Wraithknights and Imperial knights being literally double digit quantities of them existing, and we are playing iwth them against like 20-30 space marines haha.

sorry to go off topic but do you know of any tau centered books besides fire warrior and The Tau Empire (Legends of the Dark Millennium)?

[Harukage]

I would not call Custodes limited in number, since that same codex insist that they are still 10000 guardians stong. And they were regulary taking new recruits all the time, while secretly conducting operations here and there.
Now that Girlyman is in charge he finaly allowed custodes to act openly and converted them from guardians to crusaders, only leaving 300 companions to guard the empy.

[FieserMoep]

The Custodes, during their Prime, managed to roughly keep 10.000 men at arms.
The Legions Astartes together had up to 2.000.000 marines at times.

Also keep in mind that the custodes could grow while the Legions had to replace losses all the time.

Even if they still have 10k that is actually not that much if you keep in mind that unlike modern chapters they don't have to replace so many casualties. That just shows how time consuming and complicated it is to create a true custodes.