Q: is this souls-like / like Jedi games?

[nabbed]

Is this game like Jedi Fallen Order/Survivor? Souls like combat mechanics and super crappy almost linear maps?

Thanks.

[nabbed]

Publicado originalmente por Citizen Cook:

Publicado originalmente por emp456:

Imo, one thing is the idea you have for a game (which can be fantastic) and another thing is specifically designing every part of the gameplay. I say this because Massive Entertainment doesn't have a lot of experience in stealth, even less in stealth killing.

The Division games lack any kind of stealth even if you can appoach from cover to cover to an enemy position. But as soon as you are near, every enemy instantly knows where you are forever in that place.

Imo it's significative that Avatar Frontiers of Pandora had the same complaints or negative feedback and comments about stealth. First, each base has just too many enemies so it just doesn't seem to be designed for a stealth approach. Second, suddenly every enemy knows where are you and all the base is alerted as basically happened with Division (but those games were not designed to do any stealth while Avatar supposedly had stealth). Third, from what i have read stealth killing it just makes base infiltration impossible so the best you can try is to sneak inside without killing anyone. Fourth, enemies respawn and sometimes very quickly (so while at big bases, that means enemies respawn behind and around you again while you are still there)

Those comments/complaints about that game are pretty similar, or even exact here at Outlaws, and overall stealth works like at Division games (again, without those being stealth games but having a weird alarm mechanic while you approach in cover)

So at the end, i just assume they are not good designing any stealth at games and repeat the same patterns with each game without changing anything (like don't respawn enemies while you are there or don't suddenly alert anyone and make a clear UI that let you know when you are/can be spotted) It's clear that the result was not good given the changes they tried to do to stealth when game released here at Steam, and now it seems it's not a good stealth game but it has stealth mechanics that you can use (and some will see it as an indicator that you must be doing stealth every time, but the game simply doesn't work well with that)

And again imho, i find it a shame that being so good at cover mechanics and tactical combat (Division 1 and 2) they did not try to apply any of that at Avatar or here. The first time i saw a trailer of this game, with the main protagonist trying to sneak into a base and covering behind a metal barricade i was excited as i thought they were doing stealth plus Division cover mechanics, including cover tactical/static combat and being able to quickly move from cover to cover. But no, there's not even a dedicated button for cover and even less the ability to move from cover. Having that in other games and given Outlaws was initially designed to mainly use stealth, it seems weird that they have not added something like that. Also, imo it would have made the positional combat more fun and interesting.

Idk if some Ubi executive was there to tell them how to design the game or if it's all Massive's fault, but the design for such basic and fundamental mechanics is just inconsistent and weird, and the fix for it has been to make it non-essential and optional (so at the end it's like AC Valhalla, for instance, just go there and kill anything as it's easier, quicker, less frustrating and most important, it always work not like stealth)

At this point, i highly doubt they are going to change or try to improve any basic mechanic at the game. They have done some important changes but re-designing how stealth, combat cover or enemy respawn at this point would be just too much work and i suppose they are busy with the DLC plus starting Division 3 project, and sales don't seem to have improve in the last few months so let's see how much work they are still going to do at the game, if any. All imo, ofc.

Edit: btw from what i have seen, Nix is like Division gadgets or seems to serve to do basically the same. Again, it seems they have copied some previous designs or ideas they use at their games but have ignored the most important ones (except the stealth that it's just poorly implemented at any of their 2 last games)

That is so depressing to read. How are they not learning from their mistakes? Splinter Cell came out over 20 years ago. I they have a perfect template to copy. Sounds like when i eventually but it i shouldn’t even attempt to play it stealthily but should treat it like a action shooter.🫤

I would take anything this person says with a grain of salt. He clearly doesn't have AFOP, and only seems to know hearsay that isn't even true about that game.

[Citizen Cook]

Publicado originalmente por nabbed:

Publicado originalmente por Citizen Cook:

Wait, what? You two are saying completely different things!

I played the game for 251 hours 9 minutes, according to Ubisoft Connect app.

Neither of you show a played symbol. It’s tough to know who is telling the truth because you’re both very convincing.

[emp456]

Publicado originalmente por nabbed:

Publicado originalmente por Citizen Cook:

That is so depressing to read. How are they not learning from their mistakes? Splinter Cell came out over 20 years ago. I they have a perfect template to copy. Sounds like when i eventually but it i shouldn’t even attempt to play it stealthily but should treat it like a action shooter.🫤

I would take anything this person says with a grain of salt. He clearly doesn't have AFOP, and only seems to know hearsay that isn't even true about that game.

I am not hiding that i don't own the game and i clearly said i read or watched about this. I have been following the game since they announced it, i have read a lot and watch a lot, and i always thought that i don't need to own a game to give my opinion about it. Imo that is how we take the decision to buy it or not, and i'm not friend of buying and refunding constantly to just try a game.

About what i said, there are threads at this forums specifically talking and complaining about respawning enemies and that's exactly what i said, all respawning around you each time you enter the game no matter where you saved your session, which means enemies you already killed respawning behind and around you. This forces the player to stay at the game or lose careful progression, and it's the typical "does not respect player's time". Not only that but for a game that was released with stealth as a basic mechanic that's a big, frustrating mess.

There is no dedicated cover mechanic also. Idk what more to say, it's just that and i was comparing this with previois Massive games where cover is well implemented and makes each combat situation a small tactical challange that adds to the fun and contributes breaking the repetitive nature of a game, making it addictive. There are plenty of opinions both from players and critics aswell about the mediocre combat of this game, and again i do not need to own it to say this.

That for Outlaws. About Avatar, there are also complaints about how some big bases are suddenly fully alerted and how it's a frustration to try to progress if killing a single enemy alerts the entire base. Same about respawn. If they have changed something since release as they tried to do with Outlaws as a response for the biggest complaints, i have no idea as i also don't own Avatar. But the complaints are as similar as logical given it's the same studio and surely share teams of devs and designers between both games.

Finally, about my comment being off-topic, i was responding to @Citizen Cook's comment about Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. That was an interesting reference and lead to my analysis about how important is choosing the right developer or design director when making a game. From what i know, Clint Hocking (original game director and designer of that Splinter Cell game) is still or again works for Ubisoft, in this case Ubisoft Montreal. And when a studio lacks any experience about stealth, it would have been good to have that other guy design the stealth here giving all his experience to the project. I gave examples of the previous Massive games and how inexperienced they are at stealth, and also gave my opinion that they choose to use a basic mechanic they have not implemented fine in any game (as i also said, Avatar has the same complaints that you can read at this forum or at Ubisoft forums, at Metacritic or at Open Critic, or even at Youtube gameplays) instead of using what they know best.

And all i said i clearly remarked was IMO or even IMHO. And while the direct relation on-topic to your thread is to say "No, it's not like a Souls game", the mention of combat mechanics and "almost crappy linear maps" has opened the thread to other kind of discussion also related to it.

It was not my intention to troll at your thread and i beg your pardon if you have seen it that way. I am just giving my honest opinion after reading and watching a lot from Avatar and Outlaws (and if you consider my comments about Avatar or Outlaws actual game mechanics wrong, one thing is what i have read or see and another my personal opinion about it, but in any case i'm not inventing other player's opinions or complaints)

I was really interested in both games even if i haven't played any as what i have learned from both games design is disappointing and not very interesting. Still i'm here to see if they continue to try to improve this game with more patches that touch the actual mechanics or they will just work on DLC's and move on to the next game that, from what i have read, starts development these days (Division 3)

[mhsiea]

The problem with the small amount of your post that has anything to do with Outlaws is that it's wrong. It is not true that an entire base is alerted if you are discovered, only that area is. You can hide and they will abandon the search. Furthermore, if you have eliminated the guards in a specific room or area, they do not respawn later.

Before anyone says anything, I am not suggesting that any of this is realistic. However, it is just a game.

It's entirely appropriate to watch a stream and decide that a game isn't for you. I'm not so sure that it makes sense to be offering an opinion to people who have actually played it. People like what they like. Everyone isn't the same.

[Citizen Cook]

Ok, let me ask as few questions about the stealth since it’s very important to me.

1. Can the entire game be played stealthily without a single kill if one wishes?
2. Are there any rewards for playing stealthily over going in all guns blazing?
3. Are there contextual stealth take-downs?
4. Are there stealth gadgets such as sleep darts, smoke bombs, sticky cameras etc…
5. Can you hide bodies?
6. Can you cling to cover, corner peek etc…
7. Do you get an indication when you are likely to get spotted?
8. Does the game indicate when you are hidden or visible?
9. Do enemies behave believably to your stealth actions? For example: do they notice their squad mates disappearing? Do they react to loud noises? Etc…

[mhsiea]

Publicado originalmente por Citizen Cook:

Ok, let me ask as few questions about the stealth since it’s very important to me.

1. Can the entire game be played stealthily without a single kill if one wishes?
2. Are there any rewards for playing stealthily over going in all guns blazing?
3. Are there contextual stealth take-downs?
4. Are there stealth gadgets such as sleep darts, smoke bombs, sticky cameras etc…
5. Can you hide bodies?
6. Can you cling to cover, corner peek etc…
7. Do you get an indication when you are likely to get spotted?
8. Does the game indicate when you are hidden or visible?
9. Do enemies behave believably to your stealth actions? For example: do they notice their squad mates disappearing? Do they react to loud noises? Etc…

1, No, 2. no, 3. yes, 4.yes (also nix is a big part of this, 5. no, 6. sort of, 7. yes, 8. You get an indication when NPC's are suspicious,

9. They seem to behave believably at times. At other times, not really,

What I've noticed is that an NPC will find a body which starts them looking around. However, they tend not to find you. It's also easy to hide again after being spotted.

[Citizen Cook]

Publicado originalmente por mhsiea:

Publicado originalmente por Citizen Cook:

Ok, let me ask as few questions about the stealth since it’s very important to me.

1. Can the entire game be played stealthily without a single kill if one wishes?
2. Are there any rewards for playing stealthily over going in all guns blazing?
3. Are there contextual stealth take-downs?
4. Are there stealth gadgets such as sleep darts, smoke bombs, sticky cameras etc…
5. Can you hide bodies?
6. Can you cling to cover, corner peek etc…
7. Do you get an indication when you are likely to get spotted?
8. Does the game indicate when you are hidden or visible?
9. Do enemies behave believably to your stealth actions? For example: do they notice their squad mates disappearing? Do they react to loud noises? Etc…

1, No, 2. no, 3. yes, 4.yes (also nix is a big part of this, 5. no, 6. sort of, 7. yes, 8. You get an indication when NPC's are suspicious,

9. They seem to behave believably at times. At other times, not really,

What I've noticed is that an NPC will find a body which starts them looking around. However, they tend not to find you. It's also easy to hide again after being spotted.

Thanks. Would say that the stealth is fun or frustrating? And were you previously a fan of stealth games?

[NickelToe]

Publicado originalmente por nabbed:

Is this game like Jedi Fallen Order/Survivor? Souls like combat mechanics and super crappy almost linear maps?

Thanks.

Soul-less is the word you are looking for.

Its a soul-less game with a previously popular giant IP slapped on an Ubisoft product developed by people who had never previously developed a video game. Now they have experience what not to do, lets see what this "talented" team comes up with next.

Perhaps a game about living rocks, like golems in a martial arts game with no weapons. The logical evolution of Outlaws.

[prostoe_bydlo]

Publicado originalmente por Citizen Cook:

Thanks. Would say that the stealth is fun or frustrating? And were you previously a fan of stealth games?

You didn't ask me, but if you're really interested that is my 1+1 cents.
On fun side and Nix and stun shot adds not only some fun but tactics as well. The only flustrating when you need do a job on syndicate territories and any mistake will lower syndicate trust for an amount, but will not break whole trust to zero or something. Later in game gear and abilities can make you a walking shadow. But even early you can clean whole non-story related area unseen and w/o rised alarm. Story quests can be heavy scripted and cannot be done stealth only (on purpose I guess).
Stealth is easier than in AC Odyssey or far cry 2-5 games, for example. Those games cannot be called actual stealth games, stealth just used there for some gameplay variability. Same with Outlaws, devs wanted to add stealth to make gameplay looks more natural for some rogue character, cuz you are not jedi to flash around with lightsabers. But result became kinda questionable, cuz those bare hands knockouts (I don't care much It still fun to watch those animations).
As for soulslike:
What a real good thing, you can lower difficulty a lot and it won't affect anything for you, just make game easy for you. Soulslike will never allow to do this, cuz your butthurt is a holy cow for that self proclaimed genre.

[Citizen Cook]

Publicado originalmente por prostoe_bydlo:

Publicado originalmente por Citizen Cook:

Thanks. Would say that the stealth is fun or frustrating? And were you previously a fan of stealth games?

You didn't ask me, but if you're really interested that is my 1+1 cents.
On fun side and Nix and stun shot adds not only some fun but tactics as well. The only flustrating when you need do a job on syndicate territories and any mistake will lower syndicate trust for some amount, but will not break whole trust to zero or something. Later in game some gear and abilities can make you a walking shadow. But even early you can clean whole non-story related area unseen and w/o rised alarm. Story quests can be heavy scripted and cannot be done stealth only (on purpose I guess).
Stealth is easier than in AC Odyssey or far cry 3-5 games, for example. Those games cannot be called actual stealth games, stealth just used there for some gameplay variability. Same with Outlaws, devs wanted to add stealth to make gameplay looks more natural for some rogue character, cuz you are not jedi to flash around with lightsabers. But result became kinda questionable, cuz those bare hands knockouts (I don't care much It still fun to watch those animations).
What a real good thing, you can lower difficulty a lot and it won't affect anything for you, just make game easy for you. Soullike will never allow to do this, cuz your butthurt is a holy cow for that self proclaimed genre.

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I’m playing Indy atm, and I’m quite frustrated that the game relies on Stealth so much but it’s so limited. All you can do it smash an object over someone’s head. No choke hold, no choke and drag, no cover mechanics or corner peak, and worst of all — the enemies respawn!
The enemies don’t respawn in Outlaws do they?

[prostoe_bydlo]

Publicado originalmente por Citizen Cook:

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I’m playing Indy atm, and I’m quite frustrated that the game relies on Stealth so much but it’s so limited. All you can do it smash an object over someone’s head. No choke hold, no choke and drag, no cover mechanics or corner peak, and worst of all — the enemies respawn!
The enemies don’t respawn in Outlaws do they?

They respawn cuz its semi openworld (You cannot kill everyone on planet It will looks kinda unnatural and break some quests). But if you doing some of your job or attacking outpost/base enemies won't respawn until you teleport (fast travel) to other location or run really really far away so it will count as teleporting. For example I had story quest inside imperial base. Quest giver was right outside of said base. I went ahead and stealth KO all stormtroopers and broke all traps/alarms. Then I back to quest giver and did a quest in empty base. Works with most quests btw.
Also you can maintain your hidden status with no sweat most time (magical high grass, ventilation and boxes to hide behind are available), but time to time game will ask you use tactics (with some brain) to stay hidden and proceed without alarm. Also Nix can light up enemies around for a short time, not to mention you can mark them via zoom.
Only one note here: if you load save inside enemies zone (autosave for example) you may ended up with zone full of enemies right around you. Loading any save will reset all enemies/hostile. (p.s. slow to type, comment below is right)
I guess it comes from console limitations.

[arronax06]

Publicado originalmente por prostoe_bydlo:

Publicado originalmente por Citizen Cook:

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I’m playing Indy atm, and I’m quite frustrated that the game relies on Stealth so much but it’s so limited. All you can do it smash an object over someone’s head. No choke hold, no choke and drag, no cover mechanics or corner peak, and worst of all — the enemies respawn!
The enemies don’t respawn in Outlaws do they?

They respawn cuz its semi openworld (You cannot kill everyone on planet It will looks kinda unnatural and break some quests). But if you doing some of your job or attacking outpost/base enemies won't respawn until you teleport (fast travel) to other location or run really really far away so it will count as teleporting. For example I had story quest inside imperial base. Quest giver was right outside of said base. I went ahead and stealth KO all stormtroopers and broke all traps/alarms. Then I back to quest giver and did a quest in empty base. Works with most quests btw.
Also you can maintain your hidden status with no sweat most time (magical high grass and boxes to hide behind are available), but time to time game will ask you use tactics (with some brain) to stay hidden and proceed without alarm.

Reloading a save will also respawn all the enemies (for example reloading to a previous checkpoint because you died, or because you had to close the game), so, best to do it in one go.

[Citizen Cook]

Publicado originalmente por arronax06:

Publicado originalmente por prostoe_bydlo:

They respawn cuz its semi openworld (You cannot kill everyone on planet It will looks kinda unnatural and break some quests). But if you doing some of your job or attacking outpost/base enemies won't respawn until you teleport (fast travel) to other location or run really really far away so it will count as teleporting. For example I had story quest inside imperial base. Quest giver was right outside of said base. I went ahead and stealth KO all stormtroopers and broke all traps/alarms. Then I back to quest giver and did a quest in empty base. Works with most quests btw.
Also you can maintain your hidden status with no sweat most time (magical high grass and boxes to hide behind are available), but time to time game will ask you use tactics (with some brain) to stay hidden and proceed without alarm.

Reloading a save will also respawn all the enemies (for example reloading to a previous checkpoint because you died, or because you had to close the game), so, best to do it in one go.

That’s the problem. There are so many collectibles i find myself having to return to the same areas several times only to find them repopulated again. Only way to avoid ot is to play the fame with a collectibles guide.🫤