Q: is this souls-like / like Jedi games?

[nabbed]

Is this game like Jedi Fallen Order/Survivor? Souls like combat mechanics and super crappy almost linear maps?

Thanks.

[Jacques Chirac]

No this is a third person shooter with an open world composed of non linear planets

[dragonflyer]

It's more new Tomb Raider/Assassin's Creed than Dark Souls. Most maps are not linear, but story missions (ones that don't take place in open world locations, anyway) are.

[Citizen Cook]

Originally posted by Jacques Chirac:

No this is a third person shooter with an open world composed of non linear planets

It thought it was a stealth game?

[Sticky Wicket]

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

Originally posted by Jacques Chirac:

No this is a third person shooter with an open world composed of non linear planets

It thought it was a stealth game?

It has been designed to be a stealth game but it does not really work as such.

[Mick Savage]

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

Originally posted by Jacques Chirac:

No this is a third person shooter with an open world composed of non linear planets

It thought it was a stealth game?

Nobody I know likes the stealth in this game

[Citizen Cook]

Originally posted by Sticky Wicket:

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

It thought it was a stealth game?

It has been designed to be a stealth game but it does not really work as such.

Originally posted by Mick Savage:

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

It thought it was a stealth game?

Nobody I know likes the stealth in this game

That’s pretty depressing to hear because that’s what attracted me to the game in the first place.

[Oneblock]

Originally posted by Mick Savage:

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

It thought it was a stealth game?

Nobody I know likes the stealth in this game

Does that say anything about the game or does that say something about the people you know?

Everybody I know does not believe the cracker and wine in a Catholic communion is literally the body and blood of Jesus. 1.3 Billion Catholics do. Does the number of people that believe a thing have any impact on the truth of a thing? Ignoring the fact that this is a subjective opinion.

[arronax06]

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

Originally posted by Jacques Chirac:

No this is a third person shooter with an open world composed of non linear planets

It thought it was a stealth game?

It has elements of stealth, technically, you can use stealth to do much of the open world, but you can't quicksave/quickload and enemies respawn on reload. So it depends on what you consider a stealth game. This one's closer to an Assassin's Creed than to a Dishonored.

[Citizen Cook]

Originally posted by arronax06:

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

It thought it was a stealth game?

It has elements of stealth, technically, you can use stealth to do much of the open world, but you can't quicksave/quickload and enemies respawn on reload. So it depends on what you consider a stealth game. This one's closer to an Assassin's Creed than to a Dishonored.

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is the best stealth game I’ve ever played.
In fact, I would love for Ubisoft to remaster them and add optional ray tracing.

[mhsiea]

I think it's closer to Uncharted than anything else, although Uncharted tends to be more linear. In the main missions you are often infiltrating a base. You start by locating a way in. After that you can sneak around, but you can also find ways to knock out or kill the defenders.

Nix can distract them or blow things up. Later in the game, Nix has lethal options.

Missions can also include climbing and platforming to get to an objective.

If you are discovered, you can start shooting and then hide again. If you eliminate the guards in an area, they don't respawn. They may respawn if some were still unaccounted for.

[emp456]

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

Originally posted by arronax06:

It has elements of stealth, technically, you can use stealth to do much of the open world, but you can't quicksave/quickload and enemies respawn on reload. So it depends on what you consider a stealth game. This one's closer to an Assassin's Creed than to a Dishonored.

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is the best stealth game I’ve ever played.
In fact, I would love for Ubisoft to remaster them and add optional ray tracing.

Imo, one thing is the idea you have for a game (which can be fantastic) and another thing is specifically designing every part of the gameplay. I say this because Massive Entertainment doesn't have a lot of experience in stealth, even less in stealth killing.

The Division games lack any kind of stealth even if you can appoach from cover to cover to an enemy position. But as soon as you are near, every enemy instantly knows where you are forever in that place.

Imo it's significative that Avatar Frontiers of Pandora had the same complaints or negative feedback and comments about stealth. First, each base has just too many enemies so it just doesn't seem to be designed for a stealth approach. Second, suddenly every enemy knows where are you and all the base is alerted as basically happened with Division (but those games were not designed to do any stealth while Avatar supposedly had stealth). Third, from what i have read stealth killing it just makes base infiltration impossible so the best you can try is to sneak inside without killing anyone. Fourth, enemies respawn and sometimes very quickly (so while at big bases, that means enemies respawn behind and around you again while you are still there)

Those comments/complaints about that game are pretty similar, or even exact here at Outlaws, and overall stealth works like at Division games (again, without those being stealth games but having a weird alarm mechanic while you approach in cover)

So at the end, i just assume they are not good designing any stealth at games and repeat the same patterns with each game without changing anything (like don't respawn enemies while you are there or don't suddenly alert anyone and make a clear UI that let you know when you are/can be spotted) It's clear that the result was not good given the changes they tried to do to stealth when game released here at Steam, and now it seems it's not a good stealth game but it has stealth mechanics that you can use (and some will see it as an indicator that you must be doing stealth every time, but the game simply doesn't work well with that)

And again imho, i find it a shame that being so good at cover mechanics and tactical combat (Division 1 and 2) they did not try to apply any of that at Avatar or here. The first time i saw a trailer of this game, with the main protagonist trying to sneak into a base and covering behind a metal barricade i was excited as i thought they were doing stealth plus Division cover mechanics, including cover tactical/static combat and being able to quickly move from cover to cover. But no, there's not even a dedicated button for cover and even less the ability to move from cover. Having that in other games and given Outlaws was initially designed to mainly use stealth, it seems weird that they have not added something like that. Also, imo it would have made the positional combat more fun and interesting.

Idk if some Ubi executive was there to tell them how to design the game or if it's all Massive's fault, but the design for such basic and fundamental mechanics is just inconsistent and weird, and the fix for it has been to make it non-essential and optional (so at the end it's like AC Valhalla, for instance, just go there and kill anything as it's easier, quicker, less frustrating and most important, it always work not like stealth)

At this point, i highly doubt they are going to change or try to improve any basic mechanic at the game. They have done some important changes but re-designing how stealth, combat cover or enemy respawn at this point would be just too much work and i suppose they are busy with the DLC plus starting Division 3 project, and sales don't seem to have improve in the last few months so let's see how much work they are still going to do at the game, if any. All imo, ofc.

Edit: btw from what i have seen, Nix is like Division gadgets or seems to serve to do basically the same. Again, it seems they have copied some previous designs or ideas they use at their games but have ignored the most important ones (except the stealth that it's just poorly implemented at any of their 2 last games)

[nabbed]

Originally posted by emp456:

Imo it's significative that Avatar Frontiers of Pandora had the same complaints or negative feedback and comments about stealth. First, each base has just too many enemies so it just doesn't seem to be designed for a stealth approach. Second, suddenly every enemy knows where are you and all the base is alerted as basically happened with Division (but those games were not designed to do any stealth while Avatar supposedly had stealth). Third, from what i have read stealth killing it just makes base infiltration impossible so the best you can try is to sneak inside without killing anyone. Fourth, enemies respawn and sometimes very quickly (so while at big bases, that means enemies respawn behind and around you again while you are still there)

This is unrelated to my original topic, but since I have over 200 hours in that game, thought I'd set the record straight.

All of what you said above is incorrect. The game has a fully functional stealth system that works actually very well.

1) Each base does not have too many enemies (IMO,) and each base is fully designed for stealth. There are game mechanics specifically designed to allow completely stealthy takeovers, including lethal with combat, just like in any stealth oriented game.

2) Bases are usually broken into 3-5 different area which don't even communicate with each other. If you are detected in a part of the base, only enemy squads will be alerted that belong to that area. Enemies will also fairly quickly lose interest and you can reengage full stealth.

The only time the whole base goes on alert in AFOP is when an enemy calls in reinforcements. The reinforcement will try to hone in on you, but even then, the regular defenders of the base assigned to their area will defend those areas only.

3) That is just not the case. You can kill and infiltrate in AFOP just fine.

4) This is just not the case. Enemies don't respawn in this game. If you leave the area and come back, some outposts are designed to respawn, but not while you are in the area.

You should try playing the game. It's easily the best looking game right now, especially in the second act of the main story when you get to the Plains.

[Citizen Cook]

Originally posted by emp456:

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is the best stealth game I’ve ever played.
In fact, I would love for Ubisoft to remaster them and add optional ray tracing.

Imo, one thing is the idea you have for a game (which can be fantastic) and another thing is specifically designing every part of the gameplay. I say this because Massive Entertainment doesn't have a lot of experience in stealth, even less in stealth killing.

The Division games lack any kind of stealth even if you can appoach from cover to cover to an enemy position. But as soon as you are near, every enemy instantly knows where you are forever in that place.

Imo it's significative that Avatar Frontiers of Pandora had the same complaints or negative feedback and comments about stealth. First, each base has just too many enemies so it just doesn't seem to be designed for a stealth approach. Second, suddenly every enemy knows where are you and all the base is alerted as basically happened with Division (but those games were not designed to do any stealth while Avatar supposedly had stealth). Third, from what i have read stealth killing it just makes base infiltration impossible so the best you can try is to sneak inside without killing anyone. Fourth, enemies respawn and sometimes very quickly (so while at big bases, that means enemies respawn behind and around you again while you are still there)

Those comments/complaints about that game are pretty similar, or even exact here at Outlaws, and overall stealth works like at Division games (again, without those being stealth games but having a weird alarm mechanic while you approach in cover)

So at the end, i just assume they are not good designing any stealth at games and repeat the same patterns with each game without changing anything (like don't respawn enemies while you are there or don't suddenly alert anyone and make a clear UI that let you know when you are/can be spotted) It's clear that the result was not good given the changes they tried to do to stealth when game released here at Steam, and now it seems it's not a good stealth game but it has stealth mechanics that you can use (and some will see it as an indicator that you must be doing stealth every time, but the game simply doesn't work well with that)

And again imho, i find it a shame that being so good at cover mechanics and tactical combat (Division 1 and 2) they did not try to apply any of that at Avatar or here. The first time i saw a trailer of this game, with the main protagonist trying to sneak into a base and covering behind a metal barricade i was excited as i thought they were doing stealth plus Division cover mechanics, including cover tactical/static combat and being able to quickly move from cover to cover. But no, there's not even a dedicated button for cover and even less the ability to move from cover. Having that in other games and given Outlaws was initially designed to mainly use stealth, it seems weird that they have not added something like that. Also, imo it would have made the positional combat more fun and interesting.

Idk if some Ubi executive was there to tell them how to design the game or if it's all Massive's fault, but the design for such basic and fundamental mechanics is just inconsistent and weird, and the fix for it has been to make it non-essential and optional (so at the end it's like AC Valhalla, for instance, just go there and kill anything as it's easier, quicker, less frustrating and most important, it always work not like stealth)

At this point, i highly doubt they are going to change or try to improve any basic mechanic at the game. They have done some important changes but re-designing how stealth, combat cover or enemy respawn at this point would be just too much work and i suppose they are busy with the DLC plus starting Division 3 project, and sales don't seem to have improve in the last few months so let's see how much work they are still going to do at the game, if any. All imo, ofc.

Edit: btw from what i have seen, Nix is like Division gadgets or seems to serve to do basically the same. Again, it seems they have copied some previous designs or ideas they use at their games but have ignored the most important ones (except the stealth that it's just poorly implemented at any of their 2 last games)

That is so depressing to read. How are they not learning from their mistakes? Splinter Cell came out over 20 years ago. I they have a perfect template to copy. Sounds like when i eventually but it i shouldn’t even attempt to play it stealthily but should treat it like a action shooter.🫤

[Citizen Cook]

Originally posted by nabbed:

Originally posted by emp456:

Imo it's significative that Avatar Frontiers of Pandora had the same complaints or negative feedback and comments about stealth. First, each base has just too many enemies so it just doesn't seem to be designed for a stealth approach. Second, suddenly every enemy knows where are you and all the base is alerted as basically happened with Division (but those games were not designed to do any stealth while Avatar supposedly had stealth). Third, from what i have read stealth killing it just makes base infiltration impossible so the best you can try is to sneak inside without killing anyone. Fourth, enemies respawn and sometimes very quickly (so while at big bases, that means enemies respawn behind and around you again while you are still there)

This is unrelated to my original topic, but since I have over 200 hours in that game, thought I'd set the record straight.

All of what you said above is incorrect. The game has a fully functional stealth system that works actually very well.

1) Each base does not have too many enemies (IMO,) and each base is fully designed for stealth. There are game mechanics specifically designed to allow completely stealthy takeovers, including lethal with combat, just like in any stealth oriented game.

2) Bases are usually broken into 3-5 different area which don't even communicate with each other. If you are detected in a part of the base, only enemy squads will be alerted that belong to that area. Enemies will also fairly quickly lose interest and you can reengage full stealth.

The only time the whole base goes on alert in AFOP is when an enemy calls in reinforcements. The reinforcement will try to hone in on you, but even then, the regular defenders of the base assigned to their area will defend those areas only.

3) That is just not the case. You can kill and infiltrate in AFOP just fine.

4) This is just not the case. Enemies don't respawn in this game. If you leave the area and come back, some outposts are designed to respawn, but not while you are in the area.

You should try playing the game. It's easily the best looking game right now, especially in the second act of the main story when you get to the Plains.

Wait, what? You two are saying completely different things!

[nabbed]

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

Originally posted by nabbed:

This is unrelated to my original topic, but since I have over 200 hours in that game, thought I'd set the record straight.

All of what you said above is incorrect. The game has a fully functional stealth system that works actually very well.

1) Each base does not have too many enemies (IMO,) and each base is fully designed for stealth. There are game mechanics specifically designed to allow completely stealthy takeovers, including lethal with combat, just like in any stealth oriented game.

2) Bases are usually broken into 3-5 different area which don't even communicate with each other. If you are detected in a part of the base, only enemy squads will be alerted that belong to that area. Enemies will also fairly quickly lose interest and you can reengage full stealth.

The only time the whole base goes on alert in AFOP is when an enemy calls in reinforcements. The reinforcement will try to hone in on you, but even then, the regular defenders of the base assigned to their area will defend those areas only.

3) That is just not the case. You can kill and infiltrate in AFOP just fine.

4) This is just not the case. Enemies don't respawn in this game. If you leave the area and come back, some outposts are designed to respawn, but not while you are in the area.

You should try playing the game. It's easily the best looking game right now, especially in the second act of the main story when you get to the Plains.

Wait, what? You two are saying completely different things!

I played the game for 251 hours 9 minutes, according to Ubisoft Connect app.