Only crash sim or driving too?

[kerestyche]

I prefer "ordinary" cars - base models with sub-2L engines, just what you typically see on the streets or major cities IRL. Mostly it's chill driving for me, very rarely doing aggressive overtakes when I'm too fed up with AI stupidity in freeroam. What I find confusing is how completely unsteerable the car becomes when going too fast into the corner. I have never been able to recover the car in such situation. Is it the way it is IRL? Or beamng drive model only works in "normal" driving conditions?
P.S.
Playing with wheel/pedals, so input is smooth

[Stinkiest Pinky]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kerestyche:

I started paying attention to speed reading and indeed I was going much faster than how it feels. I think I have my monitor to blame - lone 27" does not engage peripheral vision period, I need something ultrawide or multiple monitors... except my GPU won't be able to handle this (:

The cars you see running laps IRL have most definitely had Tire, Brake and Suspension upgrades, with just those things the car will still look and sound like a stock car but will have much more responsiveness.

[Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kerestyche:

I started paying attention to speed reading and indeed I was going much faster than how it feels. I think I have my monitor to blame - lone 27" does not engage peripheral vision period, I need something ultrawide or multiple monitors... except my GPU won't be able to handle this (:

approximately last year was the year that BeamNG went from crash-calculator to quasi driving-sim. And that is when and why I finally checked it out and immediately liked it. General news-coverage made me aware of it. "Ermz"'s videos finally made me want it for real. Check out his project cars 3 video-review as welll if you want a short-cut to where he is coming from and why I came to trust his assessment.

Not tried the latest update, yet myself. But going by what is being talked about: I recon another (albeit maybe small-ish) step along the right path towards ever more-realistic physics and handling. Trail-riding / rock-crawling seems to have been used as a show-piece for the new patches. Very nice as I really enjoyed doing that on a few occasions. Felt reasonably real to me (although I have never done so irl - but then again: that is what sims are for). And the soft-body (deep damage-modeling) this game offers lends itself perfectly to that activity. Just don't judge it by that one hellish trail-mod where evn the small obstacles are 2x larger then your truck's roof-hight for every 10 yards. That one is pure awful and seemingly made by kids to troll people!

And regarding the Nordschleife comparisons:
The Nordschleife is inherently a former high-speed racetrack turned into a tourist-activity. It was built for racing in a time where anything past 100km/h was considered seriously high speed. And technically: that is still 10 times faster than most people can run on their own feet for a prologed period of time, so there is that.
It is still tight and with next to no run-off, but it was designed for bumper-to-bumper, side-by-side friendly competition-driving.
The term "Gentlemen, start your engines" derives from the desire to not bump people off track. So very little off-camber corner-entries to be found. There are some stretches where you could argue they are not ideal, but the main choke-points are really not as dangerous as some make them out to be. And with a good attitude towards driving and racing close to other people the Nordschleife can be learned and at least partially mastered by anyone with enough time, money and patience. It is fun to drive it at speed.


But then again: cars back in the day, especially "economy-boxes" were built to a price-point. And they were built as people-movers, not race-cars. Suspension-kinematics as well as spring- & damper-rates were focused on a blend of ease of driving (at normal speeds, on public roads of all qualities and conditions) and tyre-life as well as different vehicle weights and weight-distributions (how much stuff in the trunk, and did all really fit in just the trunk?)

You make the car lower, you get problems with ride-hight over curbs and undulations, You will bust an oilpan on some road-debree if not careful. You make it too stiff: Your grandmother won't want to drive or ride in that car let alone buy that brand. Also stiffer means more wear on the body and suspension components etc., etc. as well as worse ofer coarse terrain to some extend.

Econoboxes cannot be good at everything. Todays real-life cars have been gotten so much better because manufacturers understand material-science and mechanical systems better and have gotten stiffer shells and better suspension-kinematics down to a very affordable price-point. Road-legal tyres also vastly improved over the last couple of decades. Last time you had puncture when following recommended pressures? Me personally: when the air-valve gave out to remind me: those tyres (regardless of remaining tread-depth) are getting old, stiff and brittle: probably time to replace them for some piece of mind + less noise. Luckily my car still has a full-size spare - so 10 minutes later I was on my way, again.

And do not underestimate ABS and ESP. They can turn a driving turd into a somewhat capable corner-carving machine - at the expense of increased brake-wear and fuel-use because the idiot driving the car does not even notice how much (s)he is over-stressing the vehicle and how often s(he) would have gone beyond their skill-level and probably crashed without those systems keeping them rubber-side down and still on the road. Modern cars use oversized brakes and thus wheel-rims for a reason :-)

[DarkWolf]

It's not really a driving sim. It's more like a car modding and crashing sim. Cars behave strangely, and don't turn like they do in real life, even when driving at realistic speeds.

[Stinkiest Pinky]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από DarkWolf:

It's not really a driving sim. It's more like a car modding and crashing sim. Cars behave strangely, and don't turn like they do in real life, even when driving at realistic speeds.

This simply is just not true.

[Oilshock]

I have felt this to, suggest ripping the ebrake. it should fo somthin

[Goose]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Dr. Mechanic:

I have felt this to, suggest ripping the ebrake. it should fo somthin

this will lock your wheels and cause you to oversteer quite aggressively, don't do this if you aren't ready.

[Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από DarkWolf:

It's not really a driving sim. It's more like a car modding and crashing sim. Cars behave strangely, and don't turn like they do in real life, even when driving at realistic speeds.

Cars over the decades have evolved. Today's cheap cars tend to follow (broadly) a common, consolidated recipe, trading in a bit of ride-comfort for ease of use and durability, using known-good best-practices that work well for most people whilst complying with ever more strict industry-standards and government-mandated performance-criteria: refresh yourself as to what happened in the late 90s when Mercedes launched it's first ever fwd-econobox and a swedish magazine performed a (to them) "standard" emergency double-lane-change maneuver (see wikipedia: "moose test") at a moderate 60..65 km/h.

So yeah: that was about the last tame that any new car model launched into a market gained such an infamous reputation on it's first outing. The original Peugeot 206 had a pronounced "french bias" as well (still a little softer than it's germanic competition, quite a nice little car back in the day, better seats than the aforementioned A-Klasse, as well - just don't try to slide an early stock one prior to the introduction of ESP, it might show your limit of skill very clearly)

Just keep in mind that not all cars (in this game) are being refreshed/updated at all times to jive with the improvements in the physics-engine. The vehicle-roster in this game is quite patchy when it comes tonecessary adjustments performed to pre-existing models when new iterations of the physics-engine are rolled out constantly. Tyres are another problem: They can only create so many of them within the limits their physics-modelling and their own expertise / time-investment allows.

Endless debate over what feels real or not.

You know what is a real problem in the real world:
Choosing the wrong kind of tyres (and/or wheels) ... THE FASTEST way to absolutely ruin an otherwise perfect car in real life.

[kpl]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από DarkWolf:

It's not really a driving sim. It's more like a car modding and crashing sim. Cars behave strangely, and don't turn like they do in real life, even when driving at realistic speeds.

it really is a driving sim, cars behave really similarly to how they do in real life, maybe youre just used to games that portray speed differently, because in beamng it really feels like the cars behave strangely, like boats, but once you get used to it, youll see that its one of the most realistic driving games out there

[Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !]

here that one viral video-clip from almost before youtube was a thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlHJh9VWAIA

good thing the driver was incompetent and panick-braked himself into a crash. Had he done it properly and accelerated his fwd sh1dtbox out of the turn (thereby allowing for the front wheels to grab the road and pull the car straight again, re-stabilizing the drive manually), the first scooter-riding couple coming onto them right after the blind (!) turn would have probably been wiped clean from the face of the earth (== big oof! ). Luckily, the car and it's idiot driver (who clearly had more than one screw loose inside his head and was clearly trying to perform a stunt that went over his head) took the short end of the stick, at least that time around.

Hopefully that guy learned his lesson right then and there. The crowd watching (in what seems like a moment of anticipation) probably did not.

Then again: the most cars that I tried in beamNG are really old North-American-esque designs. And yes, those 50s~70s era cars in particular drive totally unlike 95% of what was sold new in the last 30-odd years.

As I stated above: road-cars evolved in the last fifty(!) years. Massively so. It just is an open secret that in the last ~10..15 years most improvements are mostly hidden from view as the fundamental technology in boxes on wheels and the trials and tribulations that manufacturers had to go through during their invention have long since been completed and mostly perfected. Today, we already know how to make a box on wheels roll, stop and mostly not topple over. Applying it to actual new products while changing and renewing mass-production techniques and integrating modern drivetrains and safety-devices as well as all the infotainment and semi-autonomus electronic junk that for some reason the industry thinks it has to push out is where they still need to "develop for", today.

[kerestyche]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !:

here that one viral video-clip from almost before youtube was a thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlHJh9VWAIA

good thing the driver was incompetent and panick-braked himself into a crash. Had he done it properly and accelerated his fwd sh1dtbox out of the turn (thereby allowing for the front wheels to grab the road and pull the car straight again, re-stabilizing the drive manually...

Wish I could observe same behaviour w.r.t. traction and steerability when pushing cars in beamNG! Look at that beautiful curve the car was making even with (partially?) locked wheels! My fav ride in beamNG is base model of Cherrier FCV (3 cylinder FWD), and when going into the turn too fast the point of no return comes without notice - the car drives until it doesn't, just travelling in a straight line until hitting road barrier... or falling off a cliff. Gassing/braking seems to not do much, all steering attempts are plain ignored. All in all looks nothing like this example, sadly.

[Stinkiest Pinky]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kerestyche:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !:

here that one viral video-clip from almost before youtube was a thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlHJh9VWAIA

good thing the driver was incompetent and panick-braked himself into a crash. Had he done it properly and accelerated his fwd sh1dtbox out of the turn (thereby allowing for the front wheels to grab the road and pull the car straight again, re-stabilizing the drive manually...

Wish I could observe same behaviour w.r.t. traction and steerability when pushing cars in beamNG! Look at that beautiful curve the car was making even with (partially?) locked wheels! My fav ride in beamNG is base model of Cherrier FCV (3 cylinder FWD), and when going into the turn too fast the point of no return comes without notice - the car drives until it doesn't, just travelling in a straight line until hitting road barrier... or falling off a cliff. Gassing/braking seems to not do much, all steering attempts are plain ignored. All in all looks nothing like this example, sadly.

Try the AWD I4 asphalt rally configuration

[Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !]

This example above was a witnessing a total and utter idiot (probably beginner-driver) overspeeding into a (slightly banked), tightening and blind turn with even a scenic parking-spot populated by tourists and some wacko filming his masterpiece right at the end of what would be the end of let's call it "last chance" braking-zone. Fast in, up-side-down out.

The mechanical grip of that car was surprisingly still good enough to prevent his ride from flying off the cliff on the outside and actually still allowed for him to steer into the hill-side. BUT his forced panik-braking that he initiated entirely too late into the corner completely unweighted his car's rear and let the rear axle (both tyres) lose all directional control, thus essentially lift them off the ground, rotating the back end of the car around to the outside.
There was objectively nothing graceful about that line he took. He was not actively controlling the car from about the turn-in point onwards (first audible tyre-squeel when he tries to turn in but the car's speed overwhelms his steering-input and the car is physically unable to follow his intended line).

To be clear: it is not the car's fault. It is entirely the ignorant fool's inputs behind the wheel.

Fast drivers get most (80%+) of their braking done before the turn-in point and respect the laws of physics. The basic formula for cornering-grip goes as follows:
Grip (defined as a constant) == {turning-force + acceleration};

whereas we are talking about negative acceleration here when it comes to braking-force. once you introduce steering-input to steer off a straight line you need to reduce braking-force in order for the tyres to have sufficient headroom in the grip-department to comply with your steering input. Likewise in a rather softly-sprung car with decent suspension-travel (==most road-cars), you do not want to introduce too much rocking-motion, so you pay extra attention to have reasonably-"smooth" transitions between hard braking and maximum cornering side-load of the tyres.

Our specimen here only really found the middle pedal much too deep into the corner at what looks like ways past the optimal turn-in point. Then finally realising - albeit way too late - he was actually carrying a good chunk too much momentum (speed times mass) into the turn. Then he panic-braked with full pedal-force whilst already putting positive steering angle into the front wheels. It unsettled the car and rendered it instantly unstable.

If you follow this recipe of events in a similarly-configured short-wheelbase, sub-compact fwd-vehicle on a (what seems like, clean, warm, high-grip piece of asphalt, slightly positive road-camber with about a medium radius, slightly tightening approximately 70~75-degree total turn-value) - probably on something like 185/65 R14 OR 195/55 R15s (base-model seems to have come with tiny 175/65 R14tops when referencing tyre e-sellers, but not 205/45 R16 of the top-spec hot-hatch variant, as I reckon this guy would not be driving something as nice going by what I can see the car do in the video).

Then again: A tyre is essentially part of the suspension-system. And most drivers do not care about keeping a close eye on tyre-pressures - hence new cars are required to be fitted with pressure-monitoring. Tyre type + size + pressure (at the time of the incident) all factors into it's spring-value and behaviour. It is in effect an air-spring that introduces additional vertical movement as well as some two-dimensional horizontal flex through temporary deformation.

Well at least they stayed with the car until it toppled over -:)

[Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !]

addendum- you need a short-wheelbase, around 1100 Kg body-shell + passenger-load (cannot make out whether he was driving alone or with additional passengers and/or luggage). AFAIR those cars were all fitted with ABS, but not all came with stability-control. This explains the line he is taking quite well: the front tyres that carry 90..95% of the vehicles weight into the turn still rotate and find grip to turn the nose in when the car spins around.

His line was cutting the corner way early but with next to no active deceleration done before his turning impulse. Seems like he is applying maybe part-throttle as to keep his speed next-to constant in a lower gear at high engine revs. when he begins his turn. This probably further reduced his chances of making the corner. He chose an early-apex line going into what is clearly a late-apex type of corner (tightening in the second half) that is on top of it all, almost a fully-blind corner. Then in order to panic-brake he lifts off part-throttle in one quick motion onto the brakes. Combined with high rpm this already introduces a slight braking-force through engine-breaking (pumping-losses). Granted, that little 1.4l .. 1.6l engines do not really brake all that much, but then again: it is not insignificant when timed / in-phase together with side-to-side wiggle + panic-braking at full force (these cars probably already came with emergency-brake-boost, so a quick and decisive application of pedal-force would result in maximum brake-pressure almost instantly after his foot made contact with the pedal.

So yeah, now you should be able to recreate something like this.

This guy probably came out of the wreck with next to no pain other than some damaged pride. Passenger-cell seemed in-tact and helping hands were on-site.
Really a lucky idiot :-)

[The man, the myth, the leg]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kerestyche:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !:

here that one viral video-clip from almost before youtube was a thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlHJh9VWAIA

good thing the driver was incompetent and panick-braked himself into a crash. Had he done it properly and accelerated his fwd sh1dtbox out of the turn (thereby allowing for the front wheels to grab the road and pull the car straight again, re-stabilizing the drive manually...

Wish I could observe same behaviour w.r.t. traction and steerability when pushing cars in beamNG! Look at that beautiful curve the car was making even with (partially?) locked wheels! My fav ride in beamNG is base model of Cherrier FCV (3 cylinder FWD), and when going into the turn too fast the point of no return comes without notice - the car drives until it doesn't, just travelling in a straight line until hitting road barrier... or falling off a cliff. Gassing/braking seems to not do much, all steering attempts are plain ignored. All in all looks nothing like this example, sadly.

There is about 20 years of various suspension and other improvements, not to meantion the driving assist diffrence

[cordobarotti]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kerestyche:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !:

here that one viral video-clip from almost before youtube was a thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlHJh9VWAIA

good thing the driver was incompetent and panick-braked himself into a crash. Had he done it properly and accelerated his fwd sh1dtbox out of the turn (thereby allowing for the front wheels to grab the road and pull the car straight again, re-stabilizing the drive manually...

Wish I could observe same behaviour w.r.t. traction and steerability when pushing cars in beamNG! Look at that beautiful curve the car was making even with (partially?) locked wheels! My fav ride in beamNG is base model of Cherrier FCV (3 cylinder FWD), and when going into the turn too fast the point of no return comes without notice - the car drives until it doesn't, just travelling in a straight line until hitting road barrier... or falling off a cliff. Gassing/braking seems to not do much, all steering attempts are plain ignored. All in all looks nothing like this example, sadly.

I think the big difference is in real life you can feel what the car's doing, vibrations from the road and wheels get transmitted through the steering wheel, pedals and seat. You don't just suddenly lose traction because you feel when the wheels start sliding and you can make small adjustments. Force-feedback helps but it can't recreate every sensation perfectly.

As a real world example, I used to do autocross in a car that had no working ABS and I got pretty good at threshold braking. In driving sims like this though, I need ABS. Without the feeling of the wheels through the pedals I just can't do it.