Does the AI cheat?

[VDZ]

I know we've all been thinking about it for Tomomo, but a post I found on Fruitbat Factory's forum suggests that every single AI player is cheating:

Originally posted by Recupel:

I'm not sure if I should say this (this could be a secret information that you're aware of), but a friend of mine researched a bit 100% OJ's code and came to the conclusion that during story mode, cpus do have rigged rolls, having a "luck" value, either +1 or +2 and they use a corresponding table for all of their rolls.
I'm not going to post all the values until I get approval from a Fruitbat Factory member, but for exemple, Tomomo in story mode only has 1/36 chance to roll a "1", less than 3%.
In freeplay though, they all have fair rolls. (And it's annoying me, because I always have the impression that this game hates me and wants to crush my hopes and dreams haha)

(Source[forum.fruitbatfactory.com])

[YabaIRyS]

I knew it!! she never rolled a 1 for me ever in all 10 hours worth of trying to win QP's last mission! and I'm pretty damn sure everyone else has pretty rigged rolls. The ratio I roll 1,2,3 is far higher than all the AI. (besides poppo, she is terrible XD,but she does seem to be the most "human" in terms of rolls)

If this is true it kind of sucks that they had to make the game harder by giving the AI in campaign better odds. (As if Tomomo with 6hp +2 attack +2 Evasion isn't already hard enough)

[mhd.jfr.frnk]

their roll is pretty unbearable. AI one step to win. dice roll. win. happened to me 50% of the time.

[-{Geo}- Cegorach]

Dunno yes or no, but Tomomo rolls makes game more interesting for me and after finishing whole game got filling that I played Great, Fun and Hard game.

[I-Mah Mister Dummy]

This had to be the only possible explanation. I didn't dare talk about that because I didn't want to sound like a whiner, but I totally noticed this annoying "RNG abuse" from computer players, especially during QP's 4th scenario, against Hime and Suguri, where these two computer players constantly rolled fives or sixes, and even more during situation where they desperately needed that high roll to tip the balance in their favor. I have seen so many appaling and absurd situations in so little time that I was pretty sure the odds weren't balanced at all.
No problems about Marie Poppo, though, as it is the exact opposite of the other computer players. She rolling a 5 or 6 dice was a miracle.


Talking about that fourth scenario... man... it took me like fifteen attempts to clear it. I have been one-hit KO'd so many times I almost tore my hair out. Three of these OHKO's occured when I was like two or three squares away from my home at level 5 (in other words, me being very close to victory)... but no, either Hime or Suguri rolling a 5-6 dice for their move, catching up with me, rolling a 6 for their attack, 1 for my defence, and kablooey. Three. Bloody. Frigging. Times. These dice are totally loaded.

Well, now I'm stuck on QP's final scenario... ugh, Yuki and Tomomo. Even worse than Hime and Suguri... I will soon go crazy if things keep going on like this.

[Xuande]

This is standard fare for board games, I'm afraid. People don't want to play against smart AI, so instead dumb AI "with benefits" is used - that way the player can laugh at the dumb plays but still lose on occasion.

Not going to comment on whether there is actual AI cheating going on, but this is an issue with gaming as a whole - as it becomes more and more mainstream, mechanics have to be dumbed down more and more so games can be sold to more people without being too hard for the mass market.

[Hex]

It is very hard to program strong AI for board games like this beyond some basic tactics. If the AI didn't cheat, Campaign mode would be laughably easy.

[-{Geo}- Cegorach]

@lunar_2_eb Yes, agree, I will say it standart fear of hard games, unfortunately it's destroying the games.

AI cheat or not, ofc it will, first human is much free in choices than AI, also I can't bring Illogical decisions that gives Logical finish/end, (shortly I can't go out of its programed decisions),in many games, for more hardness Devs give AI or cheat prior or higher stats or massiveness, that makes game playable, but for now are many people who look at games as "I win in game I win in real life"and forgetting that games first rule is "they must be interesting" (shortly "Gambling"), cos if no interest game becomes boring after a few minutes no matter what graphics or mechanics it have and one of this "Gambling" things can be hardness. (same in PvP games as CS, playing against people gives you an interest to become better then other, but we have many games like it which failed, but got much better graphics or mechanics,or CoD game is hard if you doing things how you must, but if you did something extraordinary AI becomes Useless barrier on the way to the end), cos in games AI will stay behind human, Same KF - if you learn HeadShotting all AI becomes easy target for you no matter what hardness you use in game, same in L4D, but massiveness didn't let you to relax (in a good understanding of).
So yes in hard games AI - or cheating or have stats x10 higher than you or comes with massive attack, other ways as I see in modern games non AI can give you anything special. (Don't forget it's program and can't make it's own free decisions, it don't have subconscious to learn by itself (yet)).

[Dahel]

The only instance of cheating AI I can think of is in the story mode, and especially with tomomo. Sure, she's the final boss, but this coupled with her already broken stats makes it really hard do win against her.

[-{Geo}- Cegorach]

Originally posted by Dahel:

The only instance of cheating AI I can think of is in the story mode, and especially with tomomo. Sure, she's the final boss, but this coupled with her already broken stats makes it really hard do win against her.

And isn't it more interesting to defeat her then ? For me yes, it makes me tryiing harder to win.

[Dahel]

Originally posted by Xelluse:

Originally posted by Dahel:

The only instance of cheating AI I can think of is in the story mode, and especially with tomomo. Sure, she's the final boss, but this coupled with her already broken stats makes it really hard do win against her.

And isn't it more interesting to defeat her then ?

Not really, because you can barely "defeat" her. Unless you get really powerful cards, you don't even stand a chance, and the best way to win the game is constantly avoiding her while fighting the NPCs/ finishing off the other CPUs unlucky enough to meet her.

[I-Mah Mister Dummy]

The problem with this is that simply saying "Let's break the odds so that it gives the player a good challenge" isn't enough. This is simply unfair.

The AI may have limited choices indeed, but it isn't that stupid, especially in a game which is mostly based upon randomness. No matter how good you play, if the dice want you to lose, you will lose. There is no need to give the computer players such enormous advantages.

I am going to take another game as an example, which is a totally different kind of game, named "Poker Night at the inventory", a game about, well duh, poker. The huge issue with this game is that, even if it is random-based, the choices for the AI are very limited in comparison with the player's (bluff and stuff). Furthermore, the AI here is plain stupid, betting all of their money when they get a single pair of 3 after all cards are revealed on the table.

100% Oranjji juissu's AI isn't that stupid, although it makes some mistakes, especially with using cards such as the movement increase or the "fight to the death" when they're up against the boss who has all of its health when the CPU has only a couple of hitpoints left.

Still, as I said earlier, the AI isn't bad enough for the current situation. The player may have a small advantage because of their more numerous possible choices, but if your dice rolls suck, you will lose. Implementing such a great difference between the player's rolls and the CPU's rolls is clearly unfair, almost giving you no chance to win, unless you get really really lucky.

In other words, this is simply a matter of "die and retry". Keep trying until you get good rolls for the whole duration of the game, or you can be sure you'll lose, because the computer players WILL get good rolls for sure.
In actual fact, I (FINALLY !!) completed QP's last scenario a few minutes ago. Thanks to what ? Only ONE thing: Yuki's ultimate card (instantly KOing a random enemy), which was used three times, all three times targetting Tomomo (Not so tough when you can't control the randomness of such things, huh ?!). And even with this, Tomomo was only two or three turns away from winning the game... so, if you need such a huge amount of luck to even think about the eventuality of winning the game, then this is going way too far.

How about adding a difficulty settings, which would change the CPU's luck value, from "normal dice roll" to "OMGWTFBBQ ONLY SIXES" ? I know am exaggerating, of course, but I simply wish to make people understand that this is a bit too much the way it is right now. This is only more frustrating than anything else, at least to me. I understand people want a bit of challenge, but there is only a feeling of injustice coming out of it.

[Xuande]

Originally posted by HexNash:

It is very hard to program strong AI for board games like this beyond some basic tactics. If the AI didn't cheat, Campaign mode would be laughably easy.

I would disagree - Dokapon Kingdom has some rather strong AI considering the grand scope of that game. What flaws it has are few and easily fixed (like being less risk-adverse when it comes to Red Loot Spaces and robbing Item Shops.)

Then you see transitions like how the AI was dumbed down for Culdcept Saga (X360) when it was reasonable in Culdcept (PS2) and Culdcept (DS), even though the game was no more complex.

AI for a board game isn't terribly complicated. But it isn't in high demand, either. And that's a shame.

[Miraglyth]

I had been complaining about the implausibility of a lot of things that have happened to me in the campaign in steam groups (admittedly barely the 100%OJ one).

In the end I concluded it was meant to be obvious that the AI cheats, not just by dice roll but by collusion. Such as having the weaker AI gift the stronger one easy wins, or using Ubiquitous on the player even though they'd get more from the stronger AI that is ahead in stars, wins and normas.

My complaints about this are much in line with I-Mah Mister Dummy's. You're already outnumbered 3-to-1 which would reduce the win rate significantly even if they didn't work together. Giving them favourable dice rolls on top of that just turns the whole campaign into a boring repeat-until-you win exercise, with control and shift held down the whole way to make it less a waste of your time.

[MoloMowChow]

Let's be honest though, in Campaign Mode the reality is its you vs 3 CPUs. So long as any of the 1 CPUs win. They all win by stalling you from clearing the game longer.

There is some tactical decision making in this game, but let's not fool ourselves. This game is pretty much all about the dice rolls in the end. You can make the best decisions possible and stack the cards in your favour, but that won't stop that chicken from rolling a 6 on you, or you from rolling a 1 and wasting all that investment you put in earlier. With that in mind, it ends up being quite frustrating playing certain scenarios in the campaign where you wipe all the time. The final scenarios vs Tomomo is a prime example, where passive play is nearly impossible and you have to secure 15 kills faster than Tomomo who's guranteed to win nearly every engagement.

Before I eventually beat Tomomo the first time, I lost so much that I eventually would instantly Retire from games where I felt my starting situation was too unfavourable. I ended up doing that alot. When I did beat Tomomo, it was because of dumb AI anyways, where she felt getting a double kill on 2 enemy CPUs on the same tile nearby was more important than landing at her home base past them to secure victory. This allowed me to secure victory next turn. The salt on the wound was when the after battle dialogue Tomomo pretty much admitted she cheated. I guess it was supposed to be funny dialogue, but after replaying that battle dozens of time I could only sit there and frown.

By the end of it all I was just glad the final episode was done and over with, and my desire to clear the other/extra scenarios was non-existant. This is especially if what OP claimed (and I had suspected) is true.

I understand that clever AI won't truly be possible, but when your alternative is stacking all the odds against a player, they'll just feel like they were gimped most of the time. Feeling cheated is in my opinion one of the worst experiences you can have in any game. It's like everyone else has loaded dice. The real fun is free mode anyways (especially multiplayer) where everything is fair.

I suppose the developers were thinking that players don't have to, or want to, clear more than 1 scenario and that since multiplayer is more fun anyways, so complainers will play free mode more and forget about the cheating campaign. In that regard I understand their line of thinking, and I suppose clearing multiple final scenarios was meant for people who can spare the time.

I certainly don't have the time.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

where passive play is nearly impossible and you have to secure 15 kills faster than Tomomo who's guranteed to win nearly every engagement.

I found it easier to deal with Tomomo by playing Fernet and going for stars, especially those where she's up against two Marie Poppos or one Marie Poppo and one Yuki, both of whom have -1 defense, and Yuki even has that same +2 attack that Tomomo has. Outcompeting them on kills is very, very difficult.