Next Character DLC suggestion: Star Breaker (Full Gear)

[Baka Taco]

Stats and Passive:

5 HP 5 REC
+2 ATK 0 DEF -2 EVD

Can only choose win norma,
Can only get 1 win from a battle at a time
Get 1 win when knocking out another player with out-of-battle damage

- So I think many players wanted this for a while and wonder why it isn't it a thing in the game yet, that being actually gaining something from knocking out another player out-of-combat, aside from them being out the game for a couple of turns. I've seen a lot of new players using a long-distance-shot on a 1 HP player and then getting roasted by someone else for missing the point of it and actually helping out, rather than putting anyone at a disadvantage. Well, rejoice, because that ends today with Full Gear Star Breaker! You can finally put Star-Blasting light into your deck and get value from it! Incredible!
The stats are pretty self-explanatory, the signature +2 ATK, alongside negative EVD and 0 DEF to sustain yourself in combat. You might wonder about the negative 2 EVD, that actually has to do with her hyper that I came up with that comes into play later, so wait for it.
The passive comes with a nerf of reduced wins from boss and player battles, that should be pretty self-explanatory if you can score a win on a player from across the map. (looking at you, Yuki Dangerous.

Hyper:

A Fuse to the World's End
Type: Gift
Effect: You cannot play this card. Upon being discarded, deal 2 damage to all other player units, this card is discarded upon KO.
Icon idea: A little Star Breaker Bomb, flying around you would be very badass, especially if you're holding three of them and everyone sees that you're a literal walking bomb that can defuse itself on will.

- This is perfect, okay? This is what Full Gear Star Breaker should be all about: Dying yourself in order to destroy everyone else. And that's where the negative EVD comes into play so that you can choose where you want to drop the nuke after losing a battle. I see there could be a flaw in my logic here, the card can be discarded by some other means, say, a trap card or simply reaching your hand limit, or playing Princess's Privilege, but I feel like that's the fun part of it, where you can't directly trigger the effect, but there are other several ways for you to trigger it, that are situational, but kind of optimal and don't restrict you too much. The damage that it deals is relatively low and keeps the 3 HP characters safe, also preventing you from just spamming it upon draw, because it doesn't guarantee you instant free wins. It also deals with the problem of you having multiple instances of it, 'cause even if you do have, let's say, 3 hypers in your hand, and you successfully detonate them all at once and everyone is dead, you only get 3 wins from it, period. A situation where multiple hypers don't provide as much value as having one hyper, but rather increase the effectiveness of it.

I think this is perfect, chef's kiss balanced, you can't prove me wrong, and if this doesn't make its' way into the game in any shape or form, I'm gonna be very upset for at least an hour.

[Astral Mage]

So, what exactly is the point of this to make her fun to play?

• Being locked to wins Norma only just doesn't work. If normal Starbo has trouble doing so consistently, getting just one win from every fight certainly won't do the trick.
  
• Overreliance on OOB damage isn't good either, especially just a single card that is just as likely to be used by others against you or said 1hp person if they have the chance. You get a reward out of it, but you're no Suguri 46B.
  
• Hyper would make sense in context, but in terms of actual use it's very bad, especially since all gift-type hypers give a nice little icon showing exactly what you have.

It's pretty much the same as normal starbo, but with worse evasion and, somehow, an even worse set of passives and hyper

[Baka Taco]

Originally posted by Astral Mage Nich:

So, what exactly is the point of this to make her fun to play?

It literally depends on one's perspective, whether or not to determine something as "Fun". I had a game where two people were arguing non-stop about Islay being a fun character, one saying that she is not, the other saying that she is. Anywho,

• Being norma locked is Star Breaker's niche as a character. It's not supposed to make her "fun", it's supposed to make up for her good combat ability.
  
• There's Cloud of seagulls, indiscriminate fire support, Mimyuu's hammer and Star-Blasting Light. They work well, especially if you look at it from a "1 card = 1 potential win" standpoint. Idk about Mimyuu's hammer, but all the rest are solid competition and free win value, considering you still have +2 ATK and can knock other players and wild units out to get wins.
  
• Gift cards being underwhelming is, again, your personal opinion. There is nothing wrong with showing that you have a specific card in your hand to other players, especially with the effect it provides. It might have been a point with Tomomo (casual), where she would become no.1 priority for everyone on the board, but it no longer is.
  Moreover, if other players see that you're holding a card that can knock them out if you die, and also give you wins, they're not going to attack you, or use OOB damage cards against you themselves, because it would be harmful for them. It's common sense.
  
• Lastly, about her being "Pretty much the same, but worse than Original Star Breaker". Star Breaker's main problem was that She had no way to gain wins but to battle other players, it being counterable by them either rolling better than her, or being too far across the board to reach. Other problem being the boss fight restricting win gain from encounter panels. Thus the struggle. This version of Star Breaker is much more flexible in her win gathering quest, she can do it in combat if she wishes, she can do it from across the map with boost or event cards, she can even do it while the boss is out on the field and where regular Star Breaker would usually begin to struggle. And yes, it's basically the whole point of the alternative character version, them being pretty much the same, but with a slight tweak to make their gameplay different.

[Astral Mage]

Originally posted by Baka Taco:

Originally posted by Astral Mage Nich:

So, what exactly is the point of this to make her fun to play?

It literally depends on one's perspective, whether or not to determine something as "Fun". I had a game where two people were arguing non-stop about Islay being a fun character, one saying that she is not, the other saying that she is. Anywho,

• Being norma locked is Star Breaker's niche as a character. It's not supposed to make her "fun", it's supposed to make up for her good combat ability.
  
• There's Cloud of seagulls, indiscriminate fire support, Mimyuu's hammer and Star-Blasting Light. They work well, especially if you look at it from a "1 card = 1 potential win" standpoint". Idk about Mimyuu's hammer, but all the rest are solid competition and free win value, considering you still have +2 ATK and can knock other players and wild units out to get wins.
  
• Gift cards being underwhelming is, again, your personal standpoint. There is nothing wrong with showing that you have a specific card in your hand to other players, especially with the effect it provides. It might have been a point with Tomomo (casual), where she would become no.1 priority for everyone on the board, but it no longer is.
  Moreover, if other players see that you're holding a card that can knock them out if you die, and also give you wins, they're not going to attack you, or use OOB damage cards against you themselves, because it would be harmful for them. It's common sense.

So, how would this really be fun to play as a new character? (2)

• The point here is that it's already hard to win with Star Breaker even with her "significant advantage" of +2 ATK just for wins, and that comes from just getting them normally through combat. If you take away the one thing holding her afloat, which is getting two wins occasionally from other opponents, then wins becomes nigh impossible no matter what way you look at it.
  
• You're serious, right? Star Blasting Light is only good against a very niche set of characters (Tequila, Krila, maybe Saki) who already spam trap cards and would end up being instantly KO'd by it regardless. Otherwise it's 50 stars burned away that you could be using to fuel other battle cards more reliably. Mimyuu's Hammer is unreliable and relatively minuscule as a help in general, same goes for Cloud of Seagulls since it could easily backfire on you, and that ends up in turns wasted for REC rolls instead of KOing.
  
• The point is that it easily tells everyone on the entire map what you have in your hand and whether or not they'll act differently. In Tomomo Casual's situation it ended up being a marker for "Please gift exchange or nuke me into oblivion before I ascend to godmode" and it only changed because you no longer lose it on KO. It won't change the fact that it's a massive threat nor that people are gonna bully the ice cream away or do all they can to get it out of her hands.
  
  With this suggestion of Starbo, it would be likely be more like if you are holding it then you will end up seeing your opponents taking riskier behaviors to not feed you wins at low HP, such as unnecessary evades that either end with them evading or being instantly KO'd, or just charging into you at full speed to take you out anyway, since 2 damage is not all that much for them.

Point being, it's already hard as hell to play Star Breaker normally, let alone win with her. With this variation you're pretty much making her Yuki Dangerous, except with slightly better stats and a much, much harder time of winning. It would take multiple fights (and, combat in OJ is already hard, even for her if the dice isn't willing.) and/or multiple OOB cards to attempt to get a single win, let alone two. By making wins "slightly" more obtainable through the passive but still gutting her normal wins gained, you'd end up just shooting yourself in the foot because it would take an absolutely herculean effort to get to 14 wins in such a way, each and every game. I'm almost certain nobody would enjoy playing against nor as such because it would be that painful to attempt to progress the game.

[Baka Taco]

Originally posted by Astral Mage Nich:

I'm almost certain nobody would enjoy playing against nor as such because it would be that painful to attempt to progress the game.

So you're basically making assumptions based on your own vague perception, without providing any kind of alternative. That's helpful.
I think you're missing the point here, because I'm getting the idea that "fun" in your opinion equals "easy to win as". This game being heavily chance based, there is no such thing as "fun character" and "fast game progression", if you roll 1 every single turn and die in every single encounter, no character is fun to play.

The idea I suggest provides a character with solid stats, several ways of forming their deck, an interesting mechanic that synergizes well with already existing cards and the suggested hyper card, the idea is anything but boring, and yet you're saying that it would be "not fun to play as or against". What is fun to you anyway?

[Kitty]

Don't really feel like reading that whole argument, but

I like the idea of the hyper, seems like it could make for some fun interactions. Not as sure that KOs discarding it is super fair, though, since people are already super reluctant to attack, let alone Starby, so giving her effective immortality with enough bombs in hand would be very annoying to deal with. Then again, since the resulting opponent KOs are starless, idk, could work for some matchups. Still feeding her wins though, either way.

I have said for a long time that Starby is in an ok place balance-wise when decked and played correctly, but that is going with the assumption of 2 wins per kill, and a focus on them being combat kills to slow opponent's progress to keep closer pace with your own. If the focus is shifted via her passives to be out-of-combat, opponents are going to be having an easier time making progress, with just a few annoying revives to deal with.

So, her winrate might be rocky, but an interesting, chaotic build to toy around with. I'd try her.

Originally posted by Baka Taco:

(looking at you, Yuki Dangerous.

Also don't bring my girl YukiD into this, she just chillin T-T

[Meneluma]

I feel like these Starbo threads should start adding "Endless Eight" to the title, because that's exactly how it feels encountering them over and over.

A loosely related thread appears, and a certain few smell the blood in the water and make it into yet another "BUFF STARBO" thread

Originally posted by Baka Taco:

The idea I suggest provides a character with solid stats, several ways of forming their deck, an interesting mechanic that synergizes well with already existing cards and the suggested hyper card, the idea is anything but boring, and yet you're saying that it would be "not fun to play as or against". What is fun to you anyway?

The person above is about the most die hard Star Breaker main there is, you can really tell if talk shifts to balance of any other characters, all of of the arguments presented come from a "Play against" not as a "Play as" perspective

Originally posted by Baka Taco:

Stats and Passive:

5 HP 5 REC
+2 ATK 0 DEF -2 EVD

Can only choose win norma,
Can only get 1 win from a battle at a time
Get 1 win when knocking out another player with out-of-battle damage

The character idea seems like a weird fusion of Sug 46B and Kiriko playstyles and it sounds like a fun build, though it would live or die based on if you don't get cheated out of certain deck builds over some wording rules. (Like Chris, where the summons aren't even considered real player units, nor enemy units so you can't synergize with the summons at all)
You know, say you Mimic into Marc rocket if it would only give 1 win, then the character would be unfun. 2 would be just the usual, but a 1+2 would encourage experimental Mimic decks.

The character doesn't have to be "good", but it should not fall into the Yuki Dangerous pitfall where you get a crippling passive that fights against the intended playstyle.
Wins only norma might not be good for your average win rate, but for the case of Star Breaker, you don't get a passive to deny you wins. I've seen many people play the Yuki D meme of going wins only. They get to around 8 at best, losing the encounter win penalty for a wins only norma would make for a more interesting character even if it would make her statistically worse in terms of winrates

[Baka Taco]

Ok, I feel like certain things should be said. The reason why I even posted the thread is because there's only a few official characters left that could go in the roster, Full Gear SB being one of them. There's also Malt and Dirue. I took Star Breaker as the basis for the idea, because that's how alternative versions of characters work in this game, they're the same, but with a slightly different gameplay.

That being said, I did not think of this character as a "Buffed Star Breaker" or anything of the kind, Star Breaker herself should just be left alone at this point.
When thinking of a would-be character, I was thinking of what would make sense for the character to be like:

• It is a Star Breaker remake, so she should probably inherit her stats and a win norma restriction, because it made sense for developers to make her that way, so it should make sense here.
  
• There must be a tweak to her gameplay that's new to the game and that would also fit her overall aesthetic, hence out of battle knockouts. I mean she's literally attached to a bomb, it just makes sense for her to take others out from afar, cuz her movement is restricted, that's what She does in SORA, she flies aroud, attached to a satellite and shoots at you. But that would make her a buffed version of Star Breaker, because it's an additional passive to what she already has, so there must be some kind of nerf. Thus the win reduction and -2 EVD (try dodging while your arms and legs are strapped to a satellite).
  
• The idea behind the hyper was an unplayable card, because I wanted an element of "I have no choice", which is kind of the whole point of SB, her original version doesn't have a choice but to pick wins, Reika has no choise but to pick stars, and in this case you can't choose to play your hyper card on top of being unable to pick star norma, because she is an even more desparate version of SB, the second phase boss.
  I also wanted an element that has to do with knocking yourself out in order to hurt other players somehow, because again, that's what she does, she blows herself up to destroy the Earth. Giving her another passive on top of the one I already gave her was overkill, so I implemented it into her hyper card, and that also would make the most sense, because it's her final resort, ace in the hole, that's what she does when you beat her in SORA. Alte gets her final signature move as a hyper card, so I thought it would be safe to assume the same thing here.
  So, we have a passive that scores you wins on knocking others out with OOB damage, an idea of a hyper card that you can't play, and something that has to do with knocking yourself out that causes others to take damage.
  Which cards can discard themselves without you havng to play them? - Gift cards.
  Is there a hyper card that can't be played? Yes, and it's also a gift card, Mimyyu's Evil Spy Work - execution, and it also has to do with dealing damage to other players, so it all just comes together. Plus it would be cool to get a character with a gift type hyper card, no? There's only what, five characters in the entire game that have a gift type hyper? Also wouldn't it fit SB visually, having little bombs orbiting her?

[Astral Mage]

dont ever let me argue at 5 in the morning again about starbo balance

Originally posted by Meneluma:

I feel like these Starbo threads should start adding "Endless Eight" to the title, because that's exactly how it feels encountering them over and over.

honestly it'll only end when fruitbat actually does something with wins norma or to actually buff her. or if OJ dies. one of the three. also good reference lmao

[Andreas444]

Originally posted by Astral Mage Nich:

dont ever let me argue at 5 in the morning again about starbo balance

Originally posted by Meneluma:

I feel like these Starbo threads should start adding "Endless Eight" to the title, because that's exactly how it feels encountering them over and over.

honestly it'll only end when fruitbat actually does something with wins norma or to actually buff her. or if OJ dies. one of the three. also good reference lmao

Everyone at this point knows that Starbo is more or less a meme pick in pvp, in coop she is very strong depending on the team,either by having a Support unit ready to heal/revive,or a Dealer unit giving Extended over and over cause that REC hurts,even more as an Attacker and her hyper is pretty good against most bosses too.
If you want to win and maybe do with a Wins norma,just pick Marc. 80% of the base game roster is way better compared to the DLC characters in terms of win rate. Hence I hate going against Marc and Fernet players the most since these two are the most infamous for being hard to kill at all.

TLDR Leave Starbo as it is herself,if you wanna wreck people without being forced to Wins norma,just play Marc.

[Astral Mage]

Originally posted by Andreas444:

Originally posted by Astral Mage Nich:

...

Everyone at this point knows that Starbo is more or less a meme pick in pvp, in coop she is very strong depending on the team,either by having a Support unit ready to heal/revive,or a Dealer unit giving Extended over and over cause that REC hurts,even more as an Attacker and her hyper is pretty good against most bosses too.
If you want to win and maybe do with a Wins norma,just pick Marc. 80% of the base game roster is way better compared to the DLC characters in terms of win rate. Hence I hate going against Marc and Fernet players the most since these two are the most infamous for being hard to kill at all.

TLDR Leave Starbo as it is herself,if you wanna wreck people without being forced to Wins norma,just play Marc.

yeah but then whats the point of buying DLC? if she's forced to go wins norma, why is a base game character capable of getting them far easier and better? or, heck, even the absurdly and abhorrently busted Kae, and Alicianrone could get wins easier with no restrictions.

it sorta cycles back to why she should be buffed: why are other characters outpreforming her in her own gimmick that she is infamously restricted to "for good stats" when other characters boast similar stats with hardly any restrictions at all? (Yuki, Tomomo, and controversially i'll say Kae). it's off topic for this thread tho lol

[Meneluma]

To put it back on the topic, I welcome the idea of a radically different Star Breaker alt.
Marc (Pilot) doesn't sit too well with me since it is mostly the same but slightly more cost optimized for competitive viability and less likely to go all in on the wins norma.

I only hope it doesn't get murdered by wording pedantry in the details of how it interacts with cards or feature more of those "passive that only works if you have hyper, but hyper isn't viable without the passive" situations that are not uncommon in the last few char packs.

[Baka Taco]

Thank Poppo, some feedback on my idea and not whining about original SB being this and being that without comparison to other characters that makes zero sense.
Now, to make things even better: If my idea has some flaws, are there maybe some thought on what SB alt would be acceptable by this little nice that I did not intend to aggravate?

[Meneluma]

I've had more actual feedback in my original post that got buried under all of that off-topic back and forth. Trimmed a bit for clarity.

Originally posted by Meneluma:

Originally posted by Baka Taco:

Stats and Passive:

5 HP 5 REC
+2 ATK 0 DEF -2 EVD

Can only choose win norma,
Can only get 1 win from a battle at a time
Get 1 win when knocking out another player with out-of-battle damage

The character idea seems like a weird fusion of Sug 46B and Kiriko playstyles and it sounds like a fun build, though it would live or die based on if you don't get cheated out of certain deck builds over some wording rules. (Like Chris, where the summons aren't even considered real player units, nor enemy units so you can't synergize with the summons at all)
You know, say you Mimic into Marc rocket if it would only give 1 win, then the character would be unfun. 2 would be just the usual, but a 1+2 would encourage experimental Mimic decks.

The character doesn't have to be "good", but it should not fall into the Yuki Dangerous pitfall where you get a crippling passive that fights against the intended playstyle.
<snip> I've seen many people play the Yuki D meme of going wins only. They get to around 8 at best, losing the encounter win penalty for a wins only norma would make for a more interesting character even if it would make her statistically worse in terms of winrates

[princelaharlsama]

i do think this character would be more fun to play against than star breaker (base) considering the fact that she would be discouraged from bringing card control a bit more than SB and i find the invisible bombs mechanic extremely unfun to engage with
i think the main problem is that she might need a way to remove her own stars a bit better since her gift is free and most OOB is cheap sans scaling-cost hypers, possibly tied to her passive or hyper. base star breaker has an expensive hyper to help drain herself, but a free gift kind of exacerbates the issue of her being a walking piggy bank particularly when low evade means youre giving people free kills at low hp
and generally, wins-only needs support through some kind of further card that prolongs or pauses the boss appearance, since the boss being summoned in is the biggest roadblock; that, or a way to summon battlefield via a card, so i think shes pretty underpowered without something like that

[Phuderoso]

Originally posted by Meneluma:

I've had more actual feedback in my original post that got buried under all of that off-topic back and forth. Trimmed a bit for clarity

I feel like it is not fair too, my original post, more original than anyone else post is ignored in favor of other random dudes posts over the same topic. Why you people do this to me?! My Starby Full Gear idea was much better!

6 HP / 6 REC (behold, Normies!)
+3 ATK +1 DEF -4 EVD

Only choose win norma, but also higher cost cards "Cost of Power" style.
Get 1 win when knocking out another player with out-of-battle damage.

Hyper Card = Cost all available stars, +6ATK to last until # player level, or else grants extra Def, Tomomo Hyper Card style, for transformation (therefore, the player can choose to either opt to hold the Gear, or get the Goodies) .

Trivia: The first playable character to have 6 REC

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2403635065

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2636513793