Would a Kiriko tweak be unbalanced?

[Laluzi]

So Kiriko's already got the highest HP of anyone in the game. She's only tied with Castle, Orange Juice rest its soul, and she has better stats than any of the 7-hp characters.

But she has two major downsides - she can't heal from anything and she can't play battle cards without losing the only advantage she has over other characters. Sure, she's way better off than Castle. But automatically, playing one battle card puts you at the HP of Poppo or Arthur, but with a weaker hyper and less effective survivability. (Kiriko's hyper still is strong and synergizes well, but those two don't mess around.) Every battle card, even something like tactical retreat or portable pudding, chips at the HP that's really the only thing protecting her with her -1 DEF.

So Kiriko's ability to trade a temporary buff for a permanent debuff ends up being something the player can only use a few times per game, either towards the end or after they've decided they have no chance of winning. Unlike someone like Nath, who can play to one of two extremes depending on the match, Kiriko can never take full advantage of this ability. Theoretically you could play Kiriko like a berserker, and add a +1 atk/evd to powerful battle cards in exchange for 2hp by the end... but then you have a character who'll die every other turn (or need to ko herself every other turn) but still has five recovery.

TL;DR, would this change be overpowered? Kiriko gets a -1 to her REC stat for every three stacks of Strange Medicine she has. (4 recovery at 5 hp, 3 recovery at 2.)

[risbolla]

kiriko already got a balance patch since she was overtuned. her hyper used to give 30 stars per KO instead of 25. thanks to the valuable insights of the steam powered user forums she was thankfully rebalanced to where she is now

[CarThief]

I suppose that's an idea. But frankly, going that dangerously low on HP seems like a bad idea and not worth it even if you get like 3 REC.
I mean, REC just isn't worth a damn. Sometimes it's a detriment even, if you get up too early and die again (especially as a low-HP Kiriko who used too much combat steroids).

Though she most definitely needs a tweak, a buff, something. People have suggested doing other things based on her HP, such as adding +1 DEF for every X HP lost, or similar changes.

---

Personally, as someone who plays her exessively, i just wanna see it taken the other way, and be given a way to recover spent Max HP. There's litterally no incentive to go low-HP, without being able to heal it's just a death sentence as you lose stars repeatedly and the margin for error that lets you suicide at 1HP gets smaller and smaller.

If you're on say, 6 Max Hp, you can still deliberately "dodge" a 5, get hit, go to 1HP and suicide. If you're at 4HP or less, this becomes a LOT harder.

My idea for Kiriko was to simply this:

-Final Surgery: Level 1, same cost.
KO's all units at 1HP, gain 25 stars per unit KO'd.
If you KO an unit, recover 1 Max HP. Pay 15 stars per Max HP you recover.
If you KO yourself, and no-one else, recover 2 Max HP.

(You don't pay any stars if you're already at 8 Max HP, or are another character, as they do not lose their Max HP, only Kiriko does.)

That way Kiriko has a semi-effecient way to recuperate any Max HP lost to battle cards, which means battle cards can be used more freely, albeit still at a risk. To players like me it'd mean i could, say, use Magnum or Rbits to protect/steal stars or manouver myself into performing a 1HP Final Surgery. Instead of exclusively relying on the likes of Accel Hyper or Final Battle.

[RedSage]

Originally posted by CarThief:

-Final Surgery: Level 1, same cost.
KO's all units at 1HP, gain 25 stars per unit KO'd.
If you KO an unit, recover 1 Max HP. Pay 15 stars per Max HP you recover.
If you KO yourself, and no-one else, recover 2 Max HP.

As another dedicated Kiriko main, absolutely TERRIBLE idea. Yeah, let's just DESTROY her one way to gather large amounts of stars. How a Kiriko "main" came up with this terrible idea, I'll never know.

Originally posted by CarThief:

That way Kiriko has a semi-effecient way to recuperate any Max HP lost to battle cards, which means battle cards can be used more freely, albeit still at a risk. To players like me it'd mean i could, say, use Magnum or Rbits to protect/steal stars or manouver myself into performing a 1HP Final Surgery. Instead of exclusively relying on the likes of Accel Hyper or Final Battle.

Accel Hyper makes sense (not at all sure how Final Battle is helpful though), but why the HELL aren't you using Big Magnum? Big Magnum just knocks off the hp you lose from your max hp, you technically don't lose any hp from it, and it gives you +3 ATK overall due to Kiriko's passive. It's literally one of her best cards if you're playing a battle deck (which I have been doing for MONTHS going for the "Win with 2 max hp" achievement. Closest I got was 3.)

On the topic of Kiriko, I think my biggest problem with her is that she is one of the most hyper reliant characters in the game. If you're unlucky with your draws in a game and get no hypers, prepare to get steamrolled as you'll have no way to "heal" your damage from fights. Unfortunately, I don't really think there's any way to immediately fix bad card draw luck.

[Laluzi]

Hm. Final Surgery being able to return max hp isn't a bad idea, but having it switch functions from being a star gatherer harms more than it helps, there. I'd think something like 'if more than two characters are KO'd, remove a stack of strange medicine', but even then and how rarely this can be done, that's more powerful than what I was thinking of giving her.

(I don't think a change to her recovery is as big a buff as a change to her star gathers. By the time you'd be seeing a change in your downtime, you'd be worse off than most characters, with 5/0-1/0 and bad passives.)

I actually managed to get the 2hp achievement after ten or so dedicated tries, and the win wasn't with people humoring me. Have to get lucky with card draws to actually reach 2hp, have to pace the hp loss so that you're not squishy too early on, and have to stay away from people/always have a hyper once your max HP tanks. The map I won on was Lagoon Flight, and towards the final part of the game, I was alone on my side of the map. I can't remember if my opponents were mainly star gatherers or bullies, but I drew maybe two hypers through the game, and I remember earning lots of stars while I was dead (and untouchable.) But it was those runs that made me realize Kiriko actually has real attacking potential - it just ends up leaving her worse off than nearly any other character before long.

[CarThief]

Eh, having the recuperation of Max HP cost stars or not is i suppose personal preference. But you're still getting like 10 stars out of it per kill that heals you, even if it isn't the full 25. That's still something. It was mainly to balance out the fact she can then use battle cards without being crippled.
(And besides, it'd be a reaally strong combo with Rbits or any other battle card like Magnum that'll kind of safely lower you to 1HP, if she can regain lost Max HP.)

And calling the idea "terrible" without any real reason as to why doesn't really help or show much insight and/or goodwill. Feel free to actually elaborate as to why it's so bad, you know?

You severely underestimate Final Battle, it seems. A full-HP Kiriko can pretty much obliterate most targets by being a 8HP +1/-1/+1 powerhouse who will outlast her opponent relatively easily during Final Battle. Sure, she'll take some hits but if you need to stop someone in the lead, it's a priceless card if you didn't draw that Magnum. And if you're gonna waste Max HP, you better waste it on a nigh-guaranteed result, no?

Sure, Magnum is nice too, but highly situational if you're looking to KO yourself with FS, and if you're looking to steal, FB will definitely get the result if your initial attack failed, or Accel Hyper for obvious reasons. But throwing in a Magnum or two could help too if going for offence i suppose. Though personally, i'd rate it lower then FB and Accel.

Then again, i don't play her agressively. I play to survive, my entire deck specializes in survival and safe suicide. With only few cards dedicated to stealing stars (as i'll admit, if survival fails, you gotta start stealing to get your position back), often stealing in oppertune moments or to steal the lead from someone close to winning.

Think it was: Sealed Guardian, Lonely Chariot x3, Accel Hyper, Rbits, Magnum, Play of the Gods, Bloodlust, Final Battle.
(Though i should probably swap out that Rbits for another Magnum or Portable Pudding, as until she gets changed/buffed, those Rbits won't do much good, hm...
Edit: Did i even throw in Research? Maybe to discard the lucky combo of PotG&SG and just fill em up with Research, Magnum and PP. Been a while since i optimized my decks, hm.)

---

Hm, i honestly don't see much of a problem paying to get some Max HP back, but each their own. Without paying stars would work too, but i fear it'd be a little too strong, perhaps.

Personally i really don't see much value in REC myself, though. Only thing it's good for is for low-REC characters like Peat to revenge-kill someone. But it won't do much good for characters with average or weak attack power.

Hm, some say it really matters how it supposedly renders that character unable to say, land on star panels or do other stuff, but the way i think about it is, you can't do good while KO'd, but you can't do bad either, and you're completely invulnerable (except to Forced Revival). So no star tiles, but no drops, or HP loss leading into another star loss, etc.

In the end, all it does is make it hard to throw your weight around the board to get an advantadge, if the oppertunity would've been there if you where alive. I'd be way more worried about losing 1/2 stars then waiting 1-3, sometimes 4 turns to get up anyway.

Ah well, Kiriko does need a buff of some kind, though i feel anything REC-related wouldn't help in the slightest, unfortunately.

[RedSage]

Originally posted by CarThief:

And calling the idea "terrible" without any real reason as to why doesn't really help or show much insight and/or goodwill. Feel free to actually elaborate as to why it's so bad, you know?

Originally posted by RedSage:

You're either not that bright or you're being intellectually dishonest.

Originally posted by RedSage:

As another dedicated Kiriko main, absolutely TERRIBLE idea. Yeah, let's just DESTROY her one way to gather large amounts of stars. How a Kiriko "main" came up with this terrible idea, I'll never know.

Didn't think I needed to write an entire dissertation as to why a bad idea was bad. Sometimes, reasons are simple.

[DESTROYER]

In those four turns you might be dead, star loss or not, someone very well might have won the game or put themselves into a strong position to do so. Being dead a bunch is bad period outside a few edge cases.

As for Kiriko just give her a bit more oomph when using a battle card, +2 instead of +1. She's not all that bad really.

[CarThief]

I'd honestly value being able to use battle cards (to gain stars or to prevent losing them) over the measely 15 extra stars i'd get per kill. But eh. I mean, it'd probably work without the -15 star thing too, but then it'd probably be too good.

You DO realize there's other ways to gain stars then her hyper right? Sure, it can pay out a lot. It still would if you, in that scenario, where at 8HP. Protecting stars (or stealing them) is a lot more important then some measely profit you'll lose because you died, because you couldn't afford to play Rbits, or that Fire card you had just wasn't gonna cut it to steal em back due to the insane cost of 1 Max HP permanenty.

If you like the idea but hate the star-cost, then by all means post a variation of it that's not too strong, which accomplishes the same thing. (It would most definitely be more constructive then what you're doing now.)
God knows Kiriko needs a buff to the whole battle card thing one way or another.

Suppose one slightly less brutal way to go about that idea is to simply deduct 15 stars from the card's income, which at best makes it not pay out if you suicide, but you get back 2 Max HP as well as revive on full health without star loss.
Though gaining stars along with max HP seems a smidge strong. Do you see Kiriko as being THAT weak? In my hands, she aint that bad. She needs a buff, but... Not that direly.

Ah well, in the end either way works. But honestly? That is a survival tool, NOT a tool for reliable profit. Much like Kyoko's barrier.

---

Eh, in those four turns i'm dead there's a 99.99% chance my actions wouldn't have stopped whoever from winning anyway, since they where too far away. The only time this matters is if you're Poppo/Seagull/Islay who can snipe a target and maybe steal 1/2 (or 50 guaranteed) stars from them.

It sucks, but being KO'd isn't a huge factor in Versus. If anything, it's a natural part of the game, to get KO'd atleast once, all part of the cycle.

But i also wouldn't mind a +2 increase from battle cards, though i'm worried that would be a little too strong... I mean, +4 ATK from Magnum is pretty much ripe to one-shot anyone but Kyoko or a healthy +2 DEF tank. And even tanks will fall against a +2 Accel, half the time. And a +2 Final Battle (while on 6-8HP) practically ensures a kill. So there's some worries there.

Hm, nothing wrong with +2 evasion from battle cards though, God knows she'll need it with her inability to heal.

---

It reminds me of an older idea i had... Making battle cards last for several turns on Kiriko (though the higher it's level, the shorter it's duration).
Something like...

-Kiriko: Using battle cards adds stock effects. The battle card stays active for several turns. Level 1-3 card: 3 turns (this turn and the next two turns). Level 4-5 card: 2 turns.
(Which is a step up from the older version, since that had level 4+ cards only last until your next turn.)

Other ideas:
-Kiriko: Doesn't pay any star cost for Battle Cards. (Since you already lose Max HP, so...)

[DESTROYER]

Well it should be a fairly substantive one time buff for the cost of losing a HP for good. Nothing wrong with giving a character at least one powerful tool if you happen to get the needed cards (also it's not like rbits wouldn't mostly soak the hit anyway but at least with the change it would be easier to secure a kill off less prepped opponent).

[RedSage]

Originally posted by CarThief:

If you like the idea but hate the star-cost, then by all means post a variation of it that's not too strong, which accomplishes the same thing. (It would most definitely be more constructive then what you're doing now.)

I accept your challenge. Since you've challenged me to come up with my own ideas instead of just poo-poo'ing bad ones, allow me to present what I cooked up.

Give Kiriko a new additional passive/effect.

Transfusion/marrow transplant (I'm not master at naming things): when Kiriko acquires 2 wins, she recovers 1 max hp (max. 8 HP). This would mean she gets half way to one for every mob defeat, gets a full one back for every player she defeats, and gets one and a half from bosses. You could even see this working in tandem with the lost max hp.

Going into a fight you're expecting to win if you play the card? You won't lose the max hp if you win the fight. You could also see this as a risk vs reward. You COULD go for using a card for a fight, but if you don't manage to close the deal, you're not only missing max hp, but also probably bruised up some. You could also add the hp recovery to your strategizing.

Say you have 3 wins, but you have all your max hp, and you come up to an intersection between a star panel and an enemy panel. You could go for the enemy, and get no max hp back, or you could wait until you lose a stack of max hp and get an easy enemy win to replenish it.

If 2 wins is too many, you could maybe tweak it to 3? After all, if you only use cards to KO players and bosses, you'd never actually lose any.

Another idea would be akin to Nath, where if a battle card is played, Kiriko is given the buffs, even if its the enemy who played it. The twist would be that she doesn't get a strange medicine stack if it was triggered by the enemy playing the card. This would make approaching Kiriko with a battle card more of a weighted decision. Do you try and kill her without the card and risk not sealing the deal, or do you go for it, and risk her evading the hit and killing you on the retaliation.

Now for the thing I want to address.

Kiriko is not an attacker. She's not meant to be constantly getting into battles and using plenty of cards. She is categorically a star collector first and foremost. If your hp is 4 or lower by norma 4 in a game, you're playing her wrong. Getting to 2 hp by the end of the match isn't a guideline, it's simply an achievement. It's not her intended way of being played. You should only be using battle cards to endure a fight you'd die in otherwise, or to go after kills for stars (be it recovering ones you lost or just going for more). The atk buff you get from playing a card is to aid in kill confirms, and the eva is to help dodge some lower lethal hits. It's very much a "sink or swim" type of buff. Either you perform, or you don't. You're not supposed to be making use of it constantly, which is why I think that recovering her max hp isn't something that needs to be added.

Rather, I believe she just needs some minor tweaks. One idea would be to give her +0 def when she uses a battle card to give her a slight increase to her durability (and make defensive cards more viable). Like I said before, battle cards should be used sparingly as Kiriko, she's not designed to be a bully.

I'd also like to suggest bringing Rainbow Coloured-Circle as Kiriko. +2 eva and her +1 eva make for a nice +3 eva bonus, which is decent enough to dodge most attacks, unelss a bully pulls a big magnum or accel hyper on you.

And finally, to give credit where credit is due.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Other ideas:
-Kiriko: Doesn't pay any star cost for Battle Cards. (Since you already lose Max HP, so...)

This is actually an interesting idea. I'm not sure if it's a supper thematically fitting change, but it is still an interesting one nonetheless.

[CarThief]

Huh, so far that's pretty nice, i'd roll with that. I'm sliiightly worried just 2 wins might be too easy, but then again, it's only for one Max HP, thus one card every 2 battles in an ideal situation vs easy enemies (which, knowing her, isn't gonna happen a lot). And it'd prevent her from easy recuperation during Boss hours.

The name/theme i would've gone for is maybe "Blood Transfusion" or something, since well, it's taking their blood to regain her strenght back (from all them dangerous/weird medicine/steroids she's takin'). If it even needs a name, considering it'd probably be a passive of hers. Unless it's going to be done with stacks like "gain 1 stack of Blood Transfusion for every win you obtain, for every 2 stacks of Blood Transfusion recover 1 Max HP and consume the effect".

(In case of boss kills i'd imagine she'd get 1-2 Max HP depending on circumstances, atleast one from the 2 wins, and possibly another one if she's already halfway there from the 3rd win, and if not that then it'll just be there as 1 stack.)

And being a passive rather then hyper-reliant means she can atleast get stuff done without being well, hyper-reliant!
Certainly better then my idea, hope FBF actually looks into it since the Kiriko (and the pervert robot Noname) voice patch is nigh, and everyone knows Kiriko could use a buff.

Hm, i HAD another idea similar to the "battle cards do not consume stars" one, but forgot that one...
Although one just came to mind, what if she used no stars AND could use any level battle card at any time?
(Though i prefer the "wins give Max HP" method, better to have more freedom in BC usage then use them for "free".)

[𝔸𝕣𝕔𝕥𝕚𝕔 𝟙]

Portable Pudding Exists now. Nuff said. There is basically nothing to complain about now- the main problem everyone complained about for years is gone. So now people have gone looking for a new problem to complain about...how incredibly typical...

[Laluzi]

Originally posted by Invictus:

Portable Pudding Exists now. Nuff said. There is basically nothing to complain about now- the main problem everyone complained about for years is gone. So now people have gone looking for a new problem to complain about...how incredibly typical...

What on earth are you talking about? Typical? My complaint was that Kiriko can't use battle cards without turning into a squishy meatsack that spends most of her time dead, and that it'd be nice if she could spend less time dead once that happened.

Yeah, Portable Pudding heals Kiriko and that's great. (I suspect this isn't actually intentional and that it'll be removed one of these days.) But it eats her max hp just like everything else, so it's very much a once-in-a-match trick - assuming you draw the card to begin with.

[CarThief]

If Portable Pudding was a max-3 card, just like Pudding, you would be correct. But it is not.
You can only bring one of it, meaning there's a 1/4 chance you'll draw it, and if they do? Well, they get to heal but you don't - good job, you made it harder for yourself. So, no, PP existing does not "buff" Kiriko in the slightest.

So that leaves not much incentive to bring PP since it's easily used against you, and IF you draw it, you still lose 1 Max HP for using it. A hefty cost.

(On that note, i kinda feel like Quick Restoration, if no other changes/buffs happen, should work on Kiriko. Since she loses 1 Max HP from using it anyway, and it'd synergize with her HP pool atleast, as well as being a heal + combat boost. Might sound strong but the cost is insanely high to compare.)

[𝔸𝕣𝕔𝕥𝕚𝕔 𝟙]

Originally posted by Laluzi:

Originally posted by Invictus:

Portable Pudding Exists now. Nuff said. There is basically nothing to complain about now- the main problem everyone complained about for years is gone. So now people have gone looking for a new problem to complain about...how incredibly typical...

What on earth are you talking about? Typical? My complaint was that Kiriko can't use battle cards without turning into a squishy meatsack that spends most of her time dead, and that it'd be nice if she could spend less time dead once that happened.

Yeah, Portable Pudding heals Kiriko and that's great. (I suspect this isn't actually intentional and that it'll be removed one of these days.) But it eats her max hp just like everything else, so it's very much a once-in-a-match trick - assuming you draw the card to begin with.

I too am a Kiriko main...
Kiriko has 7 hp and the whole point of her hyper is to OFF YOURSELF...You shouldn't be playing a battle card game because you have stacked your deck with cards like cloud of seagulls, Lonely Chariot, and mimyuu's hammer and what not to try and kill yourself without others doing it for you. Effects like air raid, bomber and potentially minelayer also can help you do this depending on the board. You are basically a passive character like castle and 90% of the fun with her is finding the most creative way to kill yourself. Battle cards are supposed to be used in emergencies or in the last chapters to take out the leader if its not you...

To me I always find this complaint dumb because to me its like complaining that I can't play Fernet as a bully...she's not design to be played that way. Its the same reason most people hate Mei. You have to play a very different style than the typical for her to work. (In Mei's case you want almost no cards in your hand at all times, which is unlike any other character)

In regards for being dead for too long...try playing Alte. If you don't spend a chunk of the game on your face ur doing it wrong. Bring Extend if you want, but the ball is in the dice's court for basically everyone when it comes to recovery.

Only thing I agree could be interesting are 0 cost battle cards or making her def 0. That's about it.