Kiriko Needs a Buff

[Azim]

Kiriko seems to be one of the least picked characters in lobbies, with an even lower win rate. I know anecdotal evidence isn't very reliable but I don't think I've ever seen Kiriko win, let alone, consistently win at a reasonable rate.

I want to like her and enjoy her, considering she cost money as a DLC character. I know there'll always be bad characters in a cast or tier list comparatively to the rest of the roster of selectable characters but Kiriko's on a completely different level of unviable and unpopular.

Like I said I want to like her, because she's the only 'blood knight' on the cast that resorts to lowering her health all the time to have offensive presence, but her passive balances that very poorly. I don't claim to know design intent but to me, she's supposed to be a blood knight with a massive hp pool, low defense, and increased combat stats when lowering her health. Except nobody wants to do that, because you end up with 1 shot-able health if you do it too often. I understand the hp balancing mechanic but it seems to have had an unintended effect on her usage and play. So I'd like to propose a change, and if it doesn't work then revert it or go back to the drawing board:

• Healing should still not be possible with her. Keep this mechanic, it's very unique to her.
  
• Keep the +1 Attack and +1 Evade with her when using battle cards, even the -1 defense.
  
• Instead of Healing cards having 0 effect, have the healing instead increase her max health, maintaining the 8 hp max health limit.

The result will be that she will still need to use her hyper to self KO, because she still can't heal, not even with home tile. Dying is her only way to heal back to top health. Even with a massive health pool of 8, being forced to die to top off results in a character with less survivability than defensive characters and even some glass cannons with high evade. That's kind of gross, but now she can be played as a risk taking offensive juggernaut herself, with these changes.

There is no guarantee you will get healing cards like Pudding or Saki's Cookie, or Dinner. At most, you only get 1 battle card per lap around the home tiles risk free. The second you set your max HP to 7 and die, it is possible to be 1 shot at full health by the likes of Yuki, Starbo, and other +2's. Especially with -1 defense. So dying and waking up with 7 max health is still a risk. Except now, you would be able to blood mage with her. There'd also be a neat interaction with her and quick restoration. She'd get the +1 attack and +1 evade and potentially get her max health back (with extra potentially) if she takes more than 1 damage. It now becomes an actual managing and strategic tool for her to manage health and battle cards appropriately, rather than run away the entire time and wait for her hyper to draw. The ability to bite back with battle cards rather than rely solely on 8 hp to bail her out is a great boon, because at present you can't really look at her as having the option to use battle cards defensively. With the option to use them defensively with that +1 evade without permanently jipping yourself out of max health is pretty important I think.

I'd like to reiterate letting her regain max health doesn't actually extend her ability to live. In fact, she'd die just as quickly. Because gaining max health shouldn't be programmed to also gain her health and without being able to heal, she'll always be solidly in 2-3 shot territory. Using even one battle card puts her in 1-2 shot territory for a lot of characters. At least like this, you can turn your lost health into battle card uses or pre-emptively use battle cards to gain momentum or keep it when used defensively. Please consider this.

[CarThief]

Yeah, her main problem definitely is not being reasonably able to make use of her combat buffs...

Even limiting the Max-HP gain to merely 1 per healing effect would be a great boon, at this rate, she's so gimped, this wouldn't really make her overpowered, not like you'll be getting both combat AND healing cards...

Worst-case scenario, if that *SOMEHOW* seems cheap, fine, throw in some catch in how she's allowed to gain back Max HP...
-Maybe there's a cooldown involved after regaining HP?
-As mentioned, Max-HP gain could be limited to +1 per healing effect (instead of going straight to 8 with Pudding, for example).
-Turn any healing into a stock effect, and upon using Final Surgery, she gains back Max HP dependant upon how much of that stock effect was gathered?
-Edit: Maybe regain +1 Max HP per KO from Final Surgery?

---

They definitely need to buff her. She's only 1HP away from Poppo, but atleast Poppo can use Combat cards AND it can heal, too! Even castle is more durable then her due to card usage (and his battle-card immunity on defence)!
Having 8HP means nothing if you lose it in two hits and can't lessen it because you'd die even FASTER.

[Juno Brier]

Originally posted by CarThief:

Having 8HP means nothing if you lose it in two hits and can't lessen it because you'd die even FASTER.

While we're at it, Castle could use a buff too. A bit too weak even for the "deliberately gimped" nature of playable bosses. At least make him have 0 base defense.

[Collars]

+1
It's not that hard to buff and balance her; come on devs...

[Azim]

Originally posted by Azim:

Originally posted by CarThief:

Yeah, her main problem definitely is not being reasonably able to make use of her combat buffs...

Even limiting the Max-HP gain to merely 1 per healing effect would be a great boon, at this rate, she's so gimped, this wouldn't really make her overpowered, not like you'll be getting both combat AND healing cards...

Worst-case scenario, if that *SOMEHOW* seems cheap, fine, throw in some catch in how she's allowed to gain back Max HP...
-Maybe there's a cooldown involved after regaining HP?
-As mentioned, Max-HP gain could be limited to +1 per healing effect (instead of going straight to 8 with Pudding, for example).
-Turn any healing into a stock effect, and upon using Final Surgery, she gains back Max HP dependant upon how much of that stock effect was gathered?
-Edit: Maybe regain +1 Max HP per KO from Final Surgery?

---

They definitely need to buff her. She's only 1HP away from Poppo, but atleast Poppo can use Combat cards AND it can heal, too! Even castle is more durable then her due to card usage (and his battle-card immunity on defence)!
Having 8HP means nothing if you lose it in two hits and can't lessen it because you'd die even FASTER.

I actually agree with the 1 hp healing, but as a max hp regain. I was wondering how Pudding would work. I think she'd be much more interesting if all forms of healing only increased her max HP by 1. Pudding is +1 max hp, rather than a full heal. Quick Restoration would thus only increase her max HP by 1, even if she takes more than 1 damage. Still an interesting interaction.

I'd also like to point out there are characters that are middling and half decent. You know who else is solidly 2 hit or 3 hit on defense? Nanako. She even has the same attack, but she actually has evade on constant and can use battle cards. She's not broken, though a case could be made due to the rng nature of her hyper.

I don't see how making Kiriko's blood maging consistent and manageable, or rather worth considering at all, is going to break her. So taking a crack at buffing her shouldn't be too scary of an undertaking. It's hard to go wrong here even with the current design.

Edit: I also disagree with Final Surgery allowing her health to increase, not becuase it's too strong, but because it's not strong enough. There's no guarantee you'll get more than 2 or 3 final surgeries, and you'll want to use battle cards more than 2 or 3 times. Forcing her to invest in more hyper cards doesn't really band-aid the issue because more hypers for her is also more hypers for everyone else, and her Hyper is already on the band-aid side of strength. It's there to turn her inability to heal into a step above a dumpster fire by letting her self KO and gain stars for it. It's fine like that, honestly, since it's part of her gameplay loop as a blood mage here.

But we gotta have a reason to blood mage in the first place before even considering using her hyper to self KO after taking risks. So let's make that possible.

Asides, she's already hyper reliant for a relatively weak hyper. Making it fix the problem would just it even more so a crutch. She needs to be able to stand on her own. The hyper should honestly be a bonus and minor boon to not lose your stars when you inevitably die like everyone else, faster than most. Taking risks to gain momentum before doing so and not having final surgery wouldn't be very fun but it'd at least be more engaging and rewarding I imagine than having to wait to get the green light to do anything at all. I think the solution here is a passive change rather than a Hyper Buff or Stat Change.

[CarThief]

Well, they where various random suggestions on how to buff her, just a what if this, what if that, kinda deal.

Hm, i'd probably suggest adding an extra attribute like "regains 1 max HP from any healing effects (except home tiles)".
So, anything except landing on homes would give some Max HP back, and given how healing tiles are very rare, healing effects are often very rare, and healing cards are even rarer when you need them, this would work well enough to allow her to use some offensive cards (and make Quick Restoration quite useful, too).

And in the event that somehow seems too strong (as if!), my 2nd suggestion would've simply been to give her a stock effect every time she recieves healing, and using Final Surgery would convert the stock effects into max HP if any was spent (even when KOing herself).

---

Yeah, Castle could use a buff too... I kinda already put out a suggestion on the big pinned topic that pretty much consisted of...
- 10HP, +1/-1/-2 stats, 6 REC
-Immunity to Battle Cards while defending. Reduce all stats by -1 when attacking a player. Cannot counter-attack players (except on Home Tiles). Gains +2 DEF on Home Tiles. Heals 2HP from Home Tiles instead of 1.
-Immovable Object: Immune to warping while active (this effect already exists, but isn't mentioned by the card). Gain +2 DEF. Can Counter-attack. Cannot move while active (like Ceo's Hair Lock, so you can still play cards, but not move and trigger tiles/traps below you). Cannot trigger traps while active. Can be used in battle when Defending. Everyone who passes you must fight you. Duration: 2 turns (1 if used in battle). (Maybe a cheaper star cost, too?)

Kinda like current castle, but it brings back the glorious 10HP (more prestigeous, and slightly more durable that way!). The attacking debuff is kinda there since 10HP is a LOT to agressively pester a player with...
And 0 ATK still has potential, but he'd put himself at notable risk with -2 DEF and Tequila-levels of dodge! Also, not being warped/trapped means he can lay traps as he uses his hyper for a double-whammy, or warp everyone while he stays where he is. Lots of fun tactics!

---

I'd also say Roboball could use a buff though... Once the little guy dies, he's out of the race! No way to regain lost stars if no-one's stupid enough to attack you while you have a hyper!
Some suggest adding a Shifu-esque regen, others suggest making the hyper work on offence too (probably swapping you to the DEF role by doing so, maybe only against NPC's/bosses though, if that makes it too easy to kill players), plenty of options...

[F IAaP n]

Originally posted by Azim:

• Instead of Healing cards having 0 effect, have the healing instead increase her max health, maintaining the 8 hp max health limit.

This is actually a nice idea. This alone would already make Kiriko much better without destroying her core gimmick.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Even limiting the Max-HP gain to merely 1 per healing effect would be a great boon, at this rate, she's so gimped, this wouldn't really make her overpowered, not like you'll be getting both combat AND healing cards...

Worst-case scenario, if that *SOMEHOW* seems cheap, fine, throw in some catch in how she's allowed to gain back Max HP...
-Maybe there's a cooldown involved after regaining HP?
-As mentioned, Max-HP gain could be limited to +1 per healing effect (instead of going straight to 8 with Pudding, for example).
-Turn any healing into a stock effect, and upon using Final Surgery, she gains back Max HP dependant upon how much of that stock effect was gathered?
-Edit: Maybe regain +1 Max HP per KO from Final Surgery?

Yeah, even if it's only in a minor way, it'd be still great to have your Maximum HP restored.

Originally posted by CarThief:

Yeah, Castle could use a buff too...

Honestly, Castle could use ANY buff. It's—without a doubt—one of the worst (if not THE worst) characters in the game.

There is some logic behind his (I call Castle as "he" for convenience sake – I'm not sexist, I swear!) drawbacks, since he's supposed to be some sort of a wall (of HP) that's hard to put down, but his HP being the only redeeming quality doesn't justify them. It feels like the devs were initially too afraid of 10 HP character that can potentially heal all HP in one turn, so they dumped all of those negative effects on him.
An inpenetratable wall?! Castle is a joke!

First, his HP is high, but not THAT much. Compared to Poppo, Castle is outright TERRIBLE.
Second, his "Can't counterattack" passive effect is too crippling. Not only Castle isn't that durable due to -1 DEF, he's also isn't great on offensive. And players being unable to use cards against him doesn't help that much either, as nothing stops them from using Boost cards and keeping attacking him endlessly without any fear.

Sure, having +1 ATK helps, but with all these drawbacks? Just not enough.
So, yes to both increasing HP and/or DEF as well as general survivability.

His hyper is bad too. It's supposed to help you bypass the crippling passive effect as it gives you an edge with increased DEF and exclusive usage of Battle cards during the fight, but the returns are too small for its cost and lack of flexibility. And using it to skip turns as a way of escaping your attacker by letting them pass you is way too expensive and still sets you back in the race towards stars and normas that this game generally is.

[Squiggly]

I agree with kiriko being able to regain her lost maximum health but I feel like her lack of usage is also caused by a lack of card support, and the fact that using cards that would normally negate damage would harm her instead.

Now that some offensive gifts cards are floating around to support those that are usually lacking in that department, it may be time we got a new pack of cards to support niche characters like Yuki D and other characters that never really had a chance to shine when they were released due to lack of support and will continue to get worse as more supported characters are released.

I wouldn't mind paying for a new card pack dlc if it made characters I own but never think of using like Kirko and Yuki D more viable, cause that means i'm more likely to try them out for dumb strategies n stuff.

PS. Dear Santa, Tsih wants a shiny new rock for Christmas.

[Azim]

Originally posted by Squiggly:

I agree with kiriko being able to regain her lost maximum health but I feel like her lack of usage is also caused by a lack of card support, and the fact that using cards that would normally negate damage would harm her instead.

Now that some offensive gifts cards are floating around to support those that are usually lacking in that department, it may be time we got a new pack of cards to support niche characters like Yuki D and other characters that never really had a chance to shine when they were released due to lack of support and will continue to get worse as more supported characters are released.

I wouldn't mind paying for a new card pack dlc if it made characters I own but never think of using like Kirko and Yuki D more viable, cause that means i'm more likely to try them out for dumb strategies n stuff.

PS. Dear Santa, Tsih wants a shiny new rock for Christmas.

I don't think needing to draw a particular card to be viable at all is good design. I'm all for more card support for characters like this, but before that, can we also get them to at least stand on their own without it? You only have a 10/48 chance to draw cards you want from the deck, and 3/48 to get the exact card you'd want. You might only get it once per game if you're lucky unless other players also put the card in the deck.

But if other players put the card in the deck it's because it benefits their character, and if it benefits a character other than Kiriko then why use her when someone more viable can get more mileage out of the card? It's like wondering why you'd use Kiriko over Kae when using I'm on Fire. They both reach +3 attack from 0 with it. But Kae actually lives longer than Kiriko, ironically.

I mean, if you can beat them by taking the initiative with battle and consistently hitting high attack numbers, and you can get 0 defense should you choose to pass them up anyway with +1 evade, that 4 HP isn't too bad. It's also functionally higher as you lap the board for home heals as long as you're not burst down.

Band-aiding the issue with card support doesn't address the core issue with Kiriko and might even make the problem worse by pushing her even further into the grave she's in.

I've always been of the opinion that Synergy is icing on cake for good design choices. Breaking a character's kneecaps and giving them a crutch that's a little bit better for them on its own than it would be for others isn't synergy, it's a handicap.


Kae getting -1 defense but +1 attack when taking the initative can backfire, but it's a mechanic you can play to your advantage most of the time and on its own you're not weaker. You're basically a +1 Atk/-1 Defense character at base. That's Synergy.

Kiriko losing Max HP forever for +1 Atk and +1 Evade is a risk that isn't guaranteed to pay off with anything, and leaves you with -1 defense and the inability to heal at base. What she has is a handicap, like a boss, without any of the unique mechanics that can be built around. I'd sooner use Castle, Shifu Robo, or Manager over Kiriko because at least I have a strategy I can build around. You literally can't build around her hyper, because it's a crutch. You can't build around her passive, becasue you're removing your proverbial kneecaps. This is the problem.

[Sapatos]

No, she doesn't.

[Azim]

Originally posted by Rockie:

No, she doesn't.

You're right, a buff doesn't adequately describe what she needs. She needs tweaks.

[mage.goo]

So why did you play it as aggressive 'blood knight' instead of passive star gatherer?

[mkjioz]

Buff suggestion, have using a battle card remove 1 normal HP instead. Just let her keep her 8 max HP. If she uses a battle card at 1 HP, she simply KOs herself without letting the opponent get anything from her. In that specific situation she also loses 1 max HP. From bottom tier to good tier. She'd still be easily KOed from 2-4 HP, but at 1 HP she isn't straight up screwed anymore if she has either battle card or hyper. You could also use battle cards to whittle yourself to 1 HP safely against NPCs so you can then use Final Surgery or another battle card. Big Magnum would also work at 2 HP, but not 1. It would result in a self-KO at 2 HP.

[Monty Sigurdson]

I'd pick Flying Castle over Kiriko any day. That says it all. Yeah, both of them could use some tweaks/buffs.

Castle should just get its 10 max HP back, that would be a simple and effective buff (and while we're on the topic of bosses, Shifu should get his 6 max HP back. I never understood why Castle and Shifu had to be nerfed after getting Hypers; their hypers aren't even that good. Very situational and I'd rather have a Pudding or Dinner in most cases. I get why Manager got a slight nerf because his hyper is actually amazingly good considering his abilities. But I digress.)

For Kiriko, I'd suggest lowering her revive roll to 4 and having her gain 1 max. HP instead of healing effects (maximum is 8; gaining 1 max hp doesn't heal her). That could maybe encourage a more battle- and battle-card-oriented gameplay style (because if you're gonna play her as a star gatherer, you might as well just pick a tank or aru and save yourself some headache).

And because someone mentioned Robo Ball: I would make him only lose 1/3 stars on death (1/4 would probably be too good) to give him some comeback potential.

[Shade]

Oh hey, it's this again!

Originally posted by Azim:

[...] when you inevitably die like everyone else, faster than most.

Your entire argument completely falls apart once you realize that this claim is actually flat-out wrong.

Here's the average damage taken (assuming optimal Defend/Evade choices) and battles survived for Kiriko.

vs. -1 Atk: ~1.11 Dmg -> ~7.21 battles
vs. +0 Atk: ~1.64 Dmg -> ~4.88 battles
vs. +1 Atk: ~2.33 Dmg -> ~3.43 battles
vs. +2 Atk: ~3.11 Dmg -> ~2.57 battles
vs. +3 Atk: ~3.94 Dmg -> ~2.03 battles

And here's Marc, a character widely accepted as fairly durable, for comparison:

vs. -1 Atk: ~0.89 Dmg -> ~4.49 battles
vs. +0 Atk: ~1.17 Dmg -> ~3.42 battles
vs. +1 Atk: ~1.56 Dmg -> ~2.56 battles
vs. +2 Atk: ~1.97 Dmg -> ~2.03 battles
vs. +3 Atk: ~2.56 Dmg -> ~1.56 battles

Kiriko undoubtedly takes more damage per hit than Marc. However, it's not twice as much, and she has twice the HP, so she nonetheless lasts significantly longer on average. Even with a point of healing factored in Kiriko still has a slight advantage (especially on the lower end of the Atk spectrum).

She can't really augment this figure with cards when needed, but in normal combat Kiriko definitely has the edge as far as survivability goes.



My impression of the whole issue is that many of the people here don't seem to understand that Kiriko is a variation of a tank, not a "blood mage" or some kind of other offensively-oriented character.
Unlike traditional tanks she's not a particularly good counter to high-Atk opponents, but on the flip-side she also has a much easier time forcefully taking (back) the lead. A Big Magnum or Final Battle late in the game can turn the tables in your favor very abruptly.

She's not very good since she's somewhat reliant on a fairly specific subset of cards to make the most of her positives, but she's functional.

[mkjioz]

Originally posted by Shade:

Oh hey, it's this again!

Originally posted by Azim:

[...] when you inevitably die like everyone else, faster than most.

Your entire argument completely falls apart once you realize that this claim is actually flat-out wrong.

Here's the average damage taken (assuming optimal Defend/Evade choices) and battles survived for Kiriko.

vs. -1 Atk: ~1.11 Dmg -> ~7.21 battles
vs. +0 Atk: ~1.64 Dmg -> ~4.88 battles
vs. +1 Atk: ~2.33 Dmg -> ~3.43 battles
vs. +2 Atk: ~3.11 Dmg -> ~2.57 battles
vs. +3 Atk: ~3.94 Dmg -> ~2.03 battles

And here's Marc, a character widely accepted as fairly durable, for comparison:

vs. -1 Atk: ~0.89 Dmg -> ~4.49 battles
vs. +0 Atk: ~1.17 Dmg -> ~3.42 battles
vs. +1 Atk: ~1.56 Dmg -> ~2.56 battles
vs. +2 Atk: ~1.97 Dmg -> ~2.03 battles
vs. +3 Atk: ~2.56 Dmg -> ~1.56 battles

Kiriko undoubtedly takes more damage per hit than Marc. However, it's not twice as much, and she has twice the HP, so she nonetheless lasts significantly longer on average. Even with a point of healing factored in Kiriko still has a slight advantage (especially on the lower end of the Atk spectrum).

She can't really augment this figure with cards when needed, but in normal combat Kiriko definitely has the edge as far as survivability goes.

My impression of the whole issue is that many of the people here don't seem to understand that Kiriko is a variation of a tank, not a "blood mage" or some kind of other offensively-oriented character.
Unlike traditional tanks she's not a particularly good counter to high-Atk opponents, but on the flip-side she also has a much easier time forcefully taking (back) the lead. A Big Magnum or Final Battle late in the game can turn the tables in your favor very abruptly.

She's not very good since she's somewhat reliant on a fairly specific subset of cards to make the most of her positives, but she's functional.

I've never understood why you've argued so positively for Kiriko in like every Kiriko buff thread there's been. Your argument that she's bulkier on average is disingenuous due to two assumptions. First, that other characters won't heal during these fights, second that Kiriko will have 8 HP worth of bulk after having just taken a lead and painting a bullseye on your back. Marc is also not a tank, but just a bulky offensive character. If you heal Marc 1 HP during those battles, she's comparatively just as durable. If you heal for 2 HP, she's flat out better except against the -1 attack characters, but that's alright since Marc has +1 base attack herself and would likely win in a battle of attrition against a -1 attacker that isn't a healing tank. A lot of people also tend to open engagements when attacking somebody right after they landed on a home panel. Then there's the fact characters who heal can then live and heal more. Some players will have the Survivor achievement on the results screen due to this. If Azim's quote is wrong for any reason it's because death is not actually inevitable for some characters. Kiriko living more will never heal her.

While her passive can let her do some offensive turnarounds, functionally, she's not better than any +1 attacker offensively and is reliant on whittling the 1 "advantage" she has to make use of it. While Final Battle can be decent for her, she will very likely not be at full HP afterwards. Final Battle is also not a great card when it is used against her at HP levels below max. At 5 HP, she would almost assuredly lose most Final Battles against most characters attacking her.

Defensively, there is no such thing as a tank without healing. Then there's no point to the tanking. The thing about near every tank and HP psuedo-tank in this game is that they can also heal. A Fernet who has a Dinner in hand functionally has 9 HP. A pudding would mean up to 11 HP. A full hand of pudding would potentially be 21 HP. And that's not counting the healing she can gain from home panels. However, if we were to consider Kiriko a tank, then the best comparison would be Kyoko. To avoid her largest failing as a tank, Kiriko needs to KO herself, practically, this is her hyper at 1 HP and only 1 HP. Kyoko on the other hand has a hyper that requires little timing and has a 3 HP spread. While there are other ways to KO one's self, they can generally be used by either character. In those cases however, other tanks have the advantage since they are far more likely to be at 1 HP due to their defense making their damage far more gradual. Kiriko's liable to take 2-4 HP chunks on average the majority of the time. Frankly speaking, Kiriko is just flat out inferior to tanks due to healing and consistency.

You claim that she is best as a pseudo tank with an offensive turn around. However, I would argue that a large amount of just plain offensive characters can tank better and more reliably than her due to healing(most FRB characters do this trivially, but it's not like Yuki can't use a pudding at 1 HP and effectively have a 9 HP life), and that by simply putting SAOM into their decks, most tanks can stage offensive turnarounds. Kiriko is just high risk low reward in a game that is all about risk mitigation and game stealing.