SOMA
Coin Toss = Total BS
The idea that Simon has a 50/50 chance of waking up in the 'correct' body, a body that he needs to progress the story (and his consciousness) forward is just bullocks. He's always going to 'lose' since his mind doesn't get cut and pasted, but copy and pasted. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the only reason we didnt follow Simon # 1 after the Toronto scan is due to gameplay and story reasons, Simon # 2 and Simon # 3 were both active at the same time at Omicron until Catherine putt Simon # 2 to sleep.

So, in a way, this is nothing more than cloning, and in every instance of a digital clone being made, there will always be 2 active copies at the same time. Where this notion of a 'coin toss' comes from - I have no idea, unless Catherine was just simply manipulating Simon...
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Showing 1-15 of 140 comments
deviate_sic Oct 5, 2015 @ 5:51am 
The point is that there's always a "winner" and "loser" of the coin toss and the person that wins and loses depends on the person asking the question, she only talks about it being a coin toss because he clearly doesn't get it, she's putting it into terms he can understand.

It's true that the version asking that question was always going to be the loser. So there was really no "toss" but you can consider all coin tosses the same way, you flip a coin and the result you get is always going to be the same one because there's no result in your experience that ever landed a different way - you'd still call it a coin toss though wouldn't you?

The result is predetermined because after the toss has happened you will never experience a different result - you may argue that it's different because you can't know going into it that you'll be the one that wins or loses and he should have known but that's subjective.
Gabi Oct 5, 2015 @ 5:52am 
It is plausable that computers work very differently in the future and that actual movement is possible without copying and pasting, how that would makes sense with there still being two though I cannot answer (it doesn't).

Most likely, Catherine was willing to do essentially anything to complete the mission. She didn't wan't to upset Simon, but also needed his help or she never could complete the mission. I don't think there was a simon robot before the one you where initialy in, that doesn't make sense narratively.
Last edited by Gabi; Oct 5, 2015 @ 5:53am
Kommissar K Oct 5, 2015 @ 7:16am 
Consider it like this:

The entirety of the game (except for post-credits sequence as Simon-4, unless you believe Simon-3 dies at the end of the game and also believe in Sarang's continuity premise), you are playing as Simon-3. Waking up as a human in 2015, finding yourself in Upsilon post-brain scan, all of the game up till the end of Omicron, are just the memories fresh in the mind of Simon-3 as he is loaded into and started up in the new body. Thus you the player are made to experience them in order to maintain the players sense of what Simon-3 feels, despite these actions being in the "past" - its the same as playing 2015 then jumping to Upsilon - in order to have that experience, the player was never "actually' 2015 human Simon, the player was -always- playing as a copy. The moment Simon-3 is started, he is thinking that all these events happened to him (when in fact they happened to Simon-1 and Simon-2). The mind is fooled by the presence of the memories.

Thus, the "coin toss" is that at the moment of the brain scan, you will immediately either find yourself in the next place the scanned copy is initialized (i.e. you were actually a copy all along, and what happened at Omicron) or find yourself completing the scan (i.e. you're the original, but this then means you won't be experiencing what the copy experiences, what happened at the space gun).
Last edited by Kommissar K; Oct 5, 2015 @ 7:22am
Q2 Oct 5, 2015 @ 7:48am 
Originally posted by Kommissar Klose:
Consider it like this:...
...you are playing as Simon-3....

This is exactly right.

(The only thing I might take issue with is the "The mind is fooled by the presence of the memories." line, since you could argue that when I wake up tomorrow my "mind will be fooled by the memories of my past that it's the same entity", because you could hold that we're different entities from day to day or moment to moment as our brains rewire and rejuvenate themselves (when we learn and cell death occurs). So it's not being fooled by memories, it's just that's how identity works.

But that's pretty nitpicky and getting into semantics.)
Prfik^oh Oct 5, 2015 @ 8:20am 
Originally posted by Q2:
Originally posted by Kommissar Klose:
Consider it like this:...
...you are playing as Simon-3....

This is exactly right.

(The only thing I might take issue with is the "The mind is fooled by the presence of the memories." line, since you could argue that when I wake up tomorrow my "mind will be fooled by the memories of my past that it's the same entity", because you could hold that we're different entities from day to day or moment to moment as our brains rewire and rejuvenate themselves (when we learn and cell death occurs). So it's not being fooled by memories, it's just that's how identity works.

But that's pretty nitpicky and getting into semantics.)
we are different persons. Memory is what makes us the way we are.
Loose memory and your perception of things around you will change basicly making you a different person. Some core memories from our childhood defines our character.
I always read into this line as meaning he lost the coin-toss of life, how different people are born into less or more fortunate situations. In this case, it's quite literal, the Simon he is lost the 'coin toss' in who he was born as, since he's not going to be the Simon who ends up on the ARK.
Sander_Cohen Oct 6, 2015 @ 8:03am 
The Coin Toss Referenc is Rubbish. No living beeing could ever win this. Every copy of Simon always is a new beeing with its own perpective. There was no chance to end up form Simon at gun to Simon in Ark. To be honest, while i really liked the game, I disliked this scene a lot just because of this coin toss sentence. It felt to me like the Developers did not think this over und just put it in because it sound cool and clever in that moment.

A coin toss ALWAYS implies that you could end up in one of two states. It never is the case in this context. The Simon would never ever possibly wake up in the Ark. He will in every case be the one that operated and launched the Ark.
Kommissar K Oct 6, 2015 @ 8:41am 
Originally posted by Sander_Cohen:
The Coin Toss Referenc is Rubbish. No living beeing could ever win this. Every copy of Simon always is a new beeing with its own perpective. There was no chance to end up form Simon at gun to Simon in Ark. To be honest, while i really liked the game, I disliked this scene a lot just because of this coin toss sentence. It felt to me like the Developers did not think this over und just put it in because it sound cool and clever in that moment.

A coin toss ALWAYS implies that you could end up in one of two states. It never is the case in this context. The Simon would never ever possibly wake up in the Ark. He will in every case be the one that operated and launched the Ark.
The Simon that "wakes up" in the Ark, would also have the immediate memories that they felt that moments before they were sitting in the pilot seat at the Omega Space gun.

The problem players are having is their own perception of time, overlaid with how Simon-4s memories would work. Players can't accept that they're actually just experiencing the past from Simon-X's point of view.

Again, I posit that the "player" is actually Simon-3 throughout the entire game. And indeed, it could of been a coin toss. The player -could- of been Simon-4 the whole game, and immediately upon the completion of the scan in the Omega pilot seat they could of experienced themselves within the Ark. The actual memories of doing anything as a human in 2015 and any actions in Pathos-2 just simply memories, that, like the player having felt they actually "did" those things, would be just as real to Simon-4.

The "coin toss" is determining which Simon you ever were to begin with. Obviously the story dictates that the player is Simon-3, as that gets the intended effect across to the player most dramatically and distinctively. If players did experience going from the omega pilot seat to the Ark, then it would have been fairly difficult to explain to them that "they" are merely a copy, that Simon-3 is still stuck in Pathos-2, and that they didn't actually do anything, functionally having started "living" just moments ago.

Realize, from Simon-4's perspective, he too had been in the pilot seat of the Omega space gun, he to felt that he experienced everything leading up to that point. It would be exactly how the player felt after the copy to finalize Simon-3.
Last edited by Kommissar K; Oct 6, 2015 @ 8:47am
Sizzle Oct 6, 2015 @ 12:39pm 
There's no coin toss.
AwesamLinux Oct 6, 2015 @ 12:56pm 
Originally posted by Alphafire:
There's no coin toss.

Basically this is my conclusion too, Catherine sells the player (the most recent Simon clone) the chance of getting into "paradise". But she knows that the process is not an actual transfer, but a cloning.

Therefore the current Simon clone is stuck on earth no matter what. With that in mind, it would make more sense for him to spare and side with the WAU.
Lusor1111 Oct 6, 2015 @ 1:08pm 
Catherine does not mention the coin toss until the end of the game. After your copy is made in Omnicron she explains exactly what happened.

It was Simon, while descending on the climber, the one who made the coin toss analogy.
Epsilon_Knight Oct 6, 2015 @ 1:10pm 
To torture this a bit, you know how the characters, after transfer or unpredicted power loss, are still briefly continuing thoughts from before? This is most clearly played out after the credits, where Simon-4's beginning of existence is apparently shouting with delight that the upload succeeded. It falls in line with the continuity enthusiast's thinking -- that for a brief moment, during the scan, or immediately after it as your brain plays out its chain of synapses firing and the next ones firing in response, and so on, before new sensory information can skew (with any significance) the conscious mind -- for that instant, the minds are exactly the same.

If you were somehow stop time in that moment, and ask both minds whether they were the original or the copy, neither would know. They would possess exactly the same knowledge to that point, and you may as well toss a coin. The brain scans reinforce this somewhat, by being recordings over time. Albeit, the time seen, as short as 3 ns, is far too short for cognition -- the brain's "frequency", if there can be such a thing in a neural net, is on the order of a hundred hertz. Hundreths of a second to think, billions of a second to capture the mind state.

So that scan is so fast it literally captures synapses as they are building and losing charge, in the middle of firing, and when that map is rebuilt, those chains of action carry all the way out until the long lanes of neurons from the eyes and ears and elsewhere can transfer electrical signals all the way to the brain, which rumbles down channels that aren't even used for thought, until the new cause-effect inputs roll over to the cortex and conscious mind.

Point being, for every copy, very shortly, the original and the copy are the same. It might take a tenth of a second to differentiate up at the cortex. Which one are you the instant before? Good luck.

Kommissar K Oct 6, 2015 @ 1:31pm 
Realize, again, the player never actually "was" Simon-1. Rather, the game allowed the player to observe Simon-1's memories up to the point of the scan in order to establish the mindset of Simon-2 as he found himself in Upsilon.

If they had the player start the game as Simon-2 is being initialized in Upsilon, it would remove the effect of the stress the apparent jump from 2015 to 21xx would cause. It doesn't serve what the devs are trying to do. You aren't "playing" as Simon-1, and then observing a time-lapse, then playing as Simon-2; rather, you're observing Simon-2's mindset at the point of activation.

The "coin-toss" in this case was that as far as we're aware, 4 Simons have experienced Simon-1 going in for the brain scan in 2015. 3 of those Simons later found themselves in Upsilon, and 1 experienced the end of the scan, and lived out the rest of his life. These are, arguably, 4 "distinct" individuals who, while having many shared experiences, do have points where their experiences diverge.

Take this to Inception-level storytelling when the player is at Omicron (more than halfway through the game), and they initialize Simon-3. The player observes the "jump" from Simon-2 to Simon-3. In effect, the player actually was always Simon-3, and again, as with the "jump" from Simon-1 to Simon-2, it turns out the player never actually was Simon-2, but rather the game has allowed the player to experience things as Simon-2 in order to establish Simon-3's starting mindset.

Again, the "coin-toss" in this case was that 3 Simons have experienced Simon-2 having the scan at Omicron. 1 of those Simons (Simon-2) remained in the pilot seat, one was Simon-3 in the power suit, and the other was Simon-4, who was later created when Simon-3 was copied into the Ark. As it turns out, the player is at least Simon-3 or Simon-4, as they clearly are not Simon-2.

And then at Omega, there is another scan. 2 Simons experienced the scan at Omega, 1 being the heavy dive suit wearing Simon-3, the other being the copied into the Ark Simon-4. Both of them experience this. The coin-toss is that the player is Simon-3, not Simon-4. The player is the Simon that continues on at this point, and doesn't "get" to have actually been the Simon that is in the Ark.

I'd say its really more a matter of how you perceive time. Obviously, yes, at this moment I feel that right now is the present. Obviously, in the present and going forward, it is easy to tell that "you" won't get to experience what a diverging you might experience, but if you examine your past, at any given moment (if you view your life in a sort of moment to moment way) you don't really have any way to verify that "you," the conscious mind we are told operates in that armoured orb atop your shoulders, are actually the one that experienced those memories. For all you know some outside force is tweaking around with your memories, toying with your synapses to some end and making you think those are memories of things that actually happened.

Both Simons experience the scan at site Omega. The point is the player is only "playing" as one of those Simons. The coin toss is that moment by moment, until that scan occurs, you can't really say if you're the original or not. It could be you were just playing out moments in the past to establish the mindset of Simon-4, or you are experiencing Simon-3. The game, in its mercy, allows you to experience both sides of that.

Arguably, the game could of done well if it indicated the events we were being shown were in the past, establish the success of the protagonist of doing "something," and allowing the player to draw conclusions from there; surprising them at the end that it was actually a Simon-3 that had come to terms with his condition that was narrating things.

As far as Catherine "tricking" Simon or "selling" him on some idea, I'd say its far more a matter of someone having a pretty set world-view, and using vague terminology that conflicts with someone elses world view. To Cath, she doesn't view a copy of someone with diverging experiences as "someone else." To
Tirantus Oct 6, 2015 @ 2:01pm 
I believe that the idea is that when Simon makes a copy of himself, HIS conciousness is transferred (or stays in place and we just go with the one that will do things) to the new copy. The metaphore with the coin toss is that there is a chance that the conciousness that we follow gets "Left behind" and will be stuck with the previous iteration. Both Simon's are concious and sentient but only one will carry on with the mission or get on the ARK. When our Simon looses the coin toss at the end, it's showing us what happens when the copy is made, one Simon sees the ark, the other is left behind. The Simon we started with at Upsilon is still at Omicron, the only thing that jumped was the player, the only time we didn't jump right away was at Phi. When the real Catherine scanned herself, she created two conciousnesses (not sure how to pluralize that) that both exist and learn. So the coin toss is irrellivent as the simon who is scanned will always be left behind, the only thing that would cause him to carry over to the next copy would be if the theory of continuity is correct. As one conciousness ceases to be, the perspective "Jumps" to the next iteration, only retaining the memories of the previous conciousness at the time of the scan.

I hope that all made sense because I kinda got lost in thought.
Batrick Hateman Oct 6, 2015 @ 2:33pm 
People are looking way too much into that "coin toss" metaphor. It doesn't mean that there is a chance of uploading the conciousness rather than just copying it, it means that it's pure chance which Simon will be lucky enough to, let's say, go further.
The player in this game is a kind of omnipresent force that is allowed to jump between versions of Simon due to narrative needs. What in fact happens is this - original Simon "lost the coin toss" because he was purely human and gravely injured, Simon-copy no. 1 lost it because there was a need for a different suit, Simon-copy no. 2 lost it cause he had to launch the Ark and there was no way of uploading him, only copying. Finally, we have Simon-copy no. 3 who logically, due to where he is and why, won every coin toss. It can be said that every specific conciousness that found itself on Earth lost the coin toss.
It's all about luck. It is pure luck/accident that for example I am experiencing life as a white male in a developed country in XXI century, right? It might sound quite abstract, but I might as well have been "put" into Dark Ages as some poor peasant in Ottoman Empire.
Last edited by Batrick Hateman; Oct 6, 2015 @ 6:52pm
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Date Posted: Oct 5, 2015 @ 2:07am
Posts: 140