Plot hole?

[Danny_G13]

Let me start by saying I consider this game a masterpiece, and loved every second of it.

But I've just noticed what I think might be a plot hole?

After the scan with Munshi, obviously it's Simon's brain scan inside a robot which wakes up/activates in the future. Real Simon had the scan as normal then died later.

But when you DO immediately wake up as the robot, you can still clearly see Simon's human arms and legs in front of you.

Have I missed something glaringly obvious here or is this a plot flaw?

[Sen]

You have missed something glaringly obvious then.

Once the communications room in Upsilon gets flooded, Simon regains consciousness/vision and sees his normal human body transform into his actual suit.

This is later addressed by both Simon and Catherine during the conversation while traveling to Theta (the human scan trying to make sense of the situation).

[Danny_G13]

So you're saying his scan wakes up and doesn't see his real robot suit to start with, only sees his human body? That sounds idiotic, and a plot flaw. That's nonsense - instead his scan should wake up, see the robot body, panic like crazy, and wonder wtf has happened to him to turn him into a robot.

Nope, not buying that one. Either your explanation is wrong, or the devs made an error with that particular plot aspect.

Why the hell would a digital scan hallucinate?! That's a biological flaw of sight and ocipital gland processing. Yes, human errors would pass over, but a digital scan would not create new ones, because there's nothing to break - he's now code inside a robot not a mortal brain and eyes ready to make errors and go wrong.

[Sen]

https://youtu.be/hdY6WLUsVow?t=166

[Danny_G13]

Oh, you misunderstand my post. I'm not disputing your explanation, if accurate to the game, which it clearly is, and fair enough.

I'm disagreeing with the devs explanation here! With the story itself. After all, it's not a scenario the human brain HAS a contingency plan for - being replicated as digital information - why would it 'do this to stop you going insane' if it doesn't know what 'this' is?

We'll have to disagree on this one, but I thank you for the explanation and clarification. For me it's a plot flaw!

[Danny_G13]

Ok seeing all the early animations are 'human' so I guess that really is how the devs explained it! It makes sense within the confines of this game/story but while I was going to add 'it's not realistic', well, it IS sci-fi isn't it! Well, and more than a touch of philosophy and psychology.

[Danny_G13]

Ok having just met Carl that probably elaborates more on the rules of this game's story. Despite clearly being a robot, Carl truly believes he's a human. But strangely enough he doesn't mention that Simon is a robot. It's not a consistently enforced law/rule but it makes sense within the confines of this plot.

[Sen]

The main thing here is comparing and understanding things like "why Simon does not go insane?" and similar themed questions, then comparing them to other scans.

In the case of your question, Simon is unlike any other scan in two things:

First of all he is a scan from 2015. This Simon doesn't know anything about Pathos II, a place that exists 100 years into his future. What likely helps Simon in this situation is that his lack of knowledge gives Pathos II a sense of 'nightmare'. A bad dream of sorts. He does continue to express disbelief for a while.

Secondly, you have to consider both his "new body" and the explanation Cath gave in that video. Mentally speaking, I think Simon has a big advantage in that 90% of his body is human (Imogen's body), which likely helps boost this 'adaptation' of senses.

I think this is why Simon is able to perceive his past human body during the early stages of the game, his mind unconsciously adapting to the new senses, and 'explaining' irrational things such as "I'm not drowning because I have a dive suit!".

You can compare this to other scans that also think they are human:

In the case of Carl and also Robin, part of this is shared. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly, both of them have a clear period that they use to explain their current situation. For Carl's part, his scan was likely done by WAU while he was operating a Wrangler, a unit that requires your mind to be pretty tied to the operator, if we are to believe his words (which we should). We do read in medical logs that he was shocked and again, if I remember correctly, fell unconscious. Carl's scan possibly has woken up only remembering this incident, and using it to explain his current situation.

We know from Robin that she is a follower in the 'continuity' theory that Sarang believed in. Because of this she decided to kill herself right after the scan. Now while there is a clear time period after the scan and her suicide, her actual scan outside Theta explains to us that her lack of memory after being scanned by Catherine is due to the suicide. Now her mockingbird believes that she is in the ARK.

Knowing this you can imagine a bit why other scans aren't so lucky. There are multiple examples, but I can mainly think of the obvious ones such as the first room with a WAU flower. We are required to use it and by doing so we kill a scan trapped in the console, that was trapping Simon in a rather psychopathic way.

Another example is a scan of -likely- Jonsy, the robot we are required to kill in order to power up Upsilon. Before losing power she cries "I was happy...". She's a good example of a scan that hasn't gone fully insane, but has accepted their reality to some extent. In this same field, we have the Scavenger enemies: scans that have also somewhat accepted their reality, but are seemingly more insane and seek structure gel no matter what.

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Personally I think the writers have done a great job of keeping Simon's reality tight between the lines. What I wrote above is just my opinion and some evidence.

To another of your points, yeah, it seems a bit weird that Carl doesn't notice Simon's body, or rather his face. But this can be explained by poor vision on the wrangler itself, or Simon's visor being covered by light. He does mention and asks what the hell happened to Simon, though.

On the topic of if this is even possible to happen to a digital scan, well. It's sci-fi as you said. I think we can allow the writers to have a bit of freedom on that.

[Danny_G13]

Here's two teasers for you then:

1: Why is Simon's suit sat with his scan in it unlike the rest which are all hung up, which just happens to be in a room IDENTICAL in shape and chair position to the one the original Simon was scanned in?

2: Why can't this diving suit actually swim?!

Bear in mind I'm just finished the very scene you gave the video of so that's how far in I am, and while I've played it before, I don't remember everything so I'm not clear if my questions in this post are answered later in the story.

[Sen]

To 1: This is a big conspiracy-like theory, the one you are going in with this question. However I would like to separate my answer.

On the room being identical, I'll say first of all that the room actually isn't identical in shape. However I agree that it has a similar positioning of elements. Personally I just think this is a bit of visual narrative. A cool detail they thought of!

On the chair being so similar to the one Simon was in 2015. I think a big point here is that Munshi's work was groundbreaking.

I recommend reading this: https://somagame.com/item-4530.html - Plus other files, they have nice information and canon writings related to the game, that help us get more insight into the story and lore.

With the one I linked above, I think it is fairly clear that Munshi's work was revolutionary. So much, that if you remember, Simon's scan can be found in Theta, where Catherine explains that he, along with other two, form part of the 'legacy scans'. Some sort of 'default examples' of scans. In this context, I think the chair being so similar is purely due to humanity replicating what works!

I would identify the chair in Toronto as a simple scanning chair, while the chair in Pathos II is designed to operate the wranglers. You can do this towards the end of the game, using a very similar chair and visor to operate a robot unit in site Phi. The type of chair Simon wakes up in, following what I said in the previous message, is what WAU had been using to scan Pathos II members. Knowing this, it isn't farfetched at all - I must say it remains obvious - that WAU has the ability to use it to copy scans as well.

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Since you said you are replaying it and refreshing your memory, I'm a bit 'eh' about going too deep. So if you don't feel like reading big spoilers say so now and ignore what I write below.

There are a lot of clues and hints as to how Simon was prepared. For one, Simon's suit as I said before holds a corpse, which is being held up with structure gel and the suit. Body belongs to deceased Imogen Reed, whose story, including her death, is seen through the Transmissions miniseries, which act as sort of a prequel to the events in Pathos II. It is clear someone, or something, has moved the body and placed it in the wrangler seat in a way WAU has been able to pass Simon's scan into it. This is pure fact due to ingame observation and also WAU codes during the sequence. However who exactly planned this is unknown. It could be WAU itself, or it could be related to Carthage (with the famous Carthage conspiracy, revolving around one of the companies seen throughout Pathos II). It is a nice mystery that gives the game an unending sense of uneasiness in terms of background.

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To 2: I reckon that while Simon has a functioning body and suit, he may kinda just... be not fit mentally or physically to actually swim under heavy pressure. Plus I must say, when I said 'dive suit'... I actually don't know. There's no flippers if I recall correctly, even.

Might just be a suit used for manipulating structures on the outside, akin to astronaut suits. We also don't really see any other Pathos II members -corpses- in a position where they would have been swimming. It actually might just be designed to walk underwater, and not swim.

Alternatively: it's just gameplay. Could possibly be too much freedom for the player to swim around but in contrast with lacking underwater sections... the devs might just simply decided to not allow swimming.

[Danny_G13]

I didn't read this before, because I didn't want the content spoiled. I think I got even more out of the game this time than the last. Wasn't ignoring you, just hanging back.

I also think you've maybe misunderstood a few things, and I even think the game itself has misunderstood a few things.

1: He woke up there because the WAU was using him. It put his scan in there, and it used him in ways we can't fully understand. It also knew his history because it had access to his memories so it was able to recreate the scenario quite closely. Not overly complicated that one tbh!

2: Diving suit was just an error - it's a diving suit and it should have been able to swim. Game oversight and they should have made it some kind of aquatic suit not a specific diving suit.

3: Ending doesn't make entire sense. After he changes bodies, and he and Catherine basically fall out over it, he is told clearly that a consciousness cannot be transplanted to the new entity - despite Sarang's Continuation theories, there's no evidence that's fact - and the coping of a new scan into a new host is simply the birth of a new life which just happens to be picking up from the moment the scan is taken. The existing copy is simply left where it is.

4: Which means his comment on the ark of 'did it work, did we make it' - well, he surely knows that his old copy is still down there on earth, because Cath already explained it's NOT like a brain transplant. But ignorance appears to be bliss.

5: Which begs the question of the 'coin toss' - maybe that's a way of breaking the reality to him gently, but it's 100% false. There is no 'chance' which host you'll be in - you're in both. Two copies of you both with the same knowledge. But both are separate entities.

It has a few little flaws here and there - but with the level of complexity of the plot, that's not surprising and it still is a pretty tight story and extremely thought-provoking.

[Sen]

I believe I haven't misunderstood anything. Neither has the game. More so, the game intendedly puts those "misunderstandings" on the table.


1. It's not entirely known. Linking you to one variation of the theory itself: https://www.reddit.com/r/soma/comments/5ud3ca/spoiler_simon_2_was_built_by_a_secret_carthage/

And more about Carthage: https://www.reddit.com/r/soma/comments/7kq2ht/carthage_industries/

Your theory is also logical and generally accepted.

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2. Honestly I have to go with it being simply gameplay. I heavily doubt it can be called an "error".

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3, 4, 5.

You have to understand that Simon has awoken in a nightmarish world after living a normal life. Suddenly he has been thrown into a literal apocalypse. The voice acting does a lot for him, Simon is basically on a complete state of desperation and denial for the whole game, only showing hope on very select times. Him not understanding or denying to understand the "coin toss" is intendedly written to be so, and so is the coin toss intended to be false too.

Furthermore, the end it is a play on the players who expected to be moved into the ARK after the copy, instead remaining in the seat. Only after you experience the ending you understand that everything Simon 2 went through (your gameplay as Simon 2) are just memories from Simon 3.


As I said, they aren't flaws in the game/story in this aspect. These things are definitely made like this with intention.

[Danny_G13]

There's a dichotomy here. When I say 'misunderstood', I'm not saying you misunderstood the game, I'm saying the game changed accepted tropes and rules in order to facilitate its story - and the misunderstanding is down to not everyone agreeing on these and how they work.

You appear to be putting every plot hole down to 'intentional' and explaining it away rather than accepting that it might actually be a flaw!

This game is great. I loved it - but its story is not watertight and you make a lot of excuses and 'explain away' with your own ideas which aren't actually in the game, to my knowledge.

Like the ending - no, I don't see that at all. It's an ending to the story - you find out Simon 3 is on the ARK and you experience his start there. I don't see that as the game telling you that Simon 2 was just a memory per se. That would be like saying any story in fact is just a memory once you get to the end. Which is semantically true, but not the point.

And the diving suit thing - again, it's an oversight. It should NOT be a diving suit if it can't swim! It's a basic accepted rule of tech that diving suits can swim. This one can't - in fact, it feels like it's 30 tonnes of concrete. And here's another. He moves underwater just as fast and with the same physics as he does on the surface. Despite it being underwater -jumps just the same, moves the same. Is that all 'intentional' or 'gameplay'.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you or the game - I've enjoyed your alternative takes on it all (even if I disagree with some of it), and I loved the game. So, this will be my last entry into the conversation.

All the best :)

[Sen]

Allow me to post one last entry too if that's the case. I indeed think what you are seeing as plot holes are not so, and are intended and put in place accordingly.

You misunderstood me with the 'memory' thing. It is based on what you said, that there is no coin toss. This is accepted fact.

Then if there is no coin toss, how do we "move" onto Simon 3? You already said obvious facts, such as that the two entities are completely different and separated, how continuity is wrong and built on the desperation of the Pathos II crew. Then, the only explanation to how we move onto the perspective of Simon 3 is that all our gameplay of Simon 2 is just memories of Simon 3. Specially since now we are a completely different being, while the actual Simon 2 is in the chair, in front of us.

Hope you enjoyed your replay.

[Danny_G13]

[quote=Sen;1643169167147309088

Hope you enjoyed your replay. [/quote]

I did, more so than the first playthrough. I got a lot from this game. It's a really stellar title and I might be wrong but did they remaster 4K textures into it because the textures look clearly 4K.

[Giggles]

I hate to necro, but reading your first comment, and following responses to Sen, it's clear to me you either weren't paying enough attention or didn't grasp the story. The only plot whole this game really has is how you wake up as Simon 2, but some could argue that's supposed to be vague to make you think.

A lot of the things in this game aren't crystal clear, and are intended to be vague to get you thinking. Sometimes you can easily chalk something up as a plot hole instead. Everything Sen has said is impressively a confirmed fact as well.