Every Ship I don't fly myself dies

[Sloppy Wolf]

So, I've tried many different ways to use the smaller ships (m3's and lower) in some form or fashion. I had a TM with fully fitted M3's for fighter support, but I would lose some on every mission, even missions where the squad way overpowered the enemy, or the TM would simply crash into something.
I've tried OOS combat for some missions with them, that failed badly.
I set up a TM with M5 Haulers for ware cleanup after fights. After the wing got mysteriously destroyed for the sixth time (I jump out of sector, and a couple minutes later I look for them and they're all gone, no warning or "ship under attack" message) I gave that Idea up as a bad idea.
I tried having a patrol of about 15 M3's around my complex, which has never been attacked, and about an hour later they are all dead.
I have no mods, playing games in both TC and AP, in an m6+ about to jump to an m7. I was gonna jump into a panther but at this point I don't think I want to incorporate anything smaller then an m6 into any type of service and the panther is a smallish carrier. Might as well go tiger. (I like the split) Even the Centaur I was having as a wing mate kept dying against every freaking thing. And I can never get there in time to help.
Combat rank = Assassin
Every faction standing is rank 7 or higher except pirates and Terran. I never enter Terran sectors. Shoot I have every police license I know about. Except Terran.

Basically if I don't fly it myself, it WILL die instantly. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? or should I just make a fleet out of M1's and forget the rest?

[McFlurry Butts]

The AI is pitiful in this game and will crash into things constantly. The small ships are essentially expensive missles. Furthermore, the game mechanics totally change for sectors you're not in directly. Turrets cease to work and damages change. It's really a game wrecker.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Sloppy Wolf:

....Basically if I don't fly it myself, it WILL die instantly. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? or should I just make a fleet out of M1's and forget the rest?

I do understand your pain. However, while I'm sure it's hitting you hard, right now, all it takes is a bit of knowledge in order to get past it. For instance, I had around 1500 or so ships, with around 1200 active and doing things a great deal of the time, and I lost relatively few to the things that you are suffering through, right now.

The keys to getting over this rely on your understanding of game mechanics and the acceptance of losses in battles. You will lose ships to combat. But, you can minimize those losses, just like any real commander must learn how to minimize the casualties in their own command.

In Sector and Out of Sector combat is handled differently. This is caused by the necessity of limiting the strain on a computer's hardware, while still providing the gaming experience that X3 provides. You have to learn to outfit ships accordingly, for IS or OS combat. This will often require you to have specific ships that are only ever used in OS combat, while maintaining a fleet of ships that are specifically designed for IS combat. You must also become familiar with individual ships and what their performance characteristics are IS and OS. Not every ship, no matter what its weapons are, is equally capable in IS and OS. For instance, the Teladi Heavy Osprey is a suck-ship in IS combat, mainly because it is so very slow. However, it shines in OS combat, because it's heavily armored and can pack a huge punch in its weapon loadout.

I will try to give you some things to act on, immediately. Be advised, though, it takes awhile to get the hang of large-scale fleet/asset management in X3. It is a complex game. However, the rewards of mastery are outstanding.

It is possible to not get a "verbal" warning when a ship is attacked if it is destroyed in the same instance. It is also possible, under certain unique circumstances, to not get a verbal warning, but I can't remember exactly what it is. (It's not a common situation, though.) But, rest assured, such an instance will be recorded in your Message Log, even if you did not get a verbal warning.

I had a TM with fully fitted M3's for fighter support, but I would lose some on every mission, even missions where the squad way overpowered the enemy, or the TM would simply crash into something.
I've tried OOS combat for some missions with them, that failed badly.

There are no collision boxes in OS. None. So, they can't crash into anything while OS. A TM can carry up to four fighters and four fighters could likely only survive combat with a single fighter, maybe two if outfitted appropriately. In short - A TM fully equipped with fighters is not exactly a formidable foe that would survive, fully, any engagement.

Since collision boxes are active when IS, only order your fighters to undock, when feasible, while you are OS. During docking is when ships are at their greatest risk for collision damage. But, IS, for a TM and its fighters, collision isn't unavoidable. But, it's worrisome enough to always have them undock OS, when possible.

I set up a TM with M5 Haulers for ware cleanup after fights. After the wing got mysteriously destroyed for the sixth time (I jump out of sector, and a couple minutes later I look for them and they're all gone, no warning or "ship under attack" message) I gave that Idea up as a bad idea.

I do this, as well, and it's a good use for a TM/Haulers. However, you must be sure that the sector is free of enemies. They didn't get destroyed "for no reason", I assure you. Something blew them up, they crashed while undocking while you're IS, they ran into an asteroid or another ship while you're IS, etc... Something killed them. So, check your Message Log.

I was gonna jump into a panther but at this point I don't think I want to incorporate anything smaller then an m6 into any type of service and the panther is a smallish carrier. Might as well go tiger. (I like the split) Even the Centaur I was having as a wing mate kept dying against every freaking thing. And I can never get there in time to help.
Combat rank = Assassin

All those are good ships and good choices. The Centaur is a so-so OS ship, but decent early IS with its turret coverage. The Heavy Centaur is a better choice, of course, if you can get one. Both are fairly "squishy", depending upon what they are fighting. Alone, in OS, I wouldn't expect either to survive an engagement by multiple enemies or larger ships, though.

Every faction standing is rank 7 or higher except pirates and Terran. I never enter Terran sectors. Shoot I have every police license I know about. Except Terran.

The Terrans have very nice ships. In fact, they're somewhat over-powered, being heavily armed, fast, and heavily armored. If you want some excellent combat ships, especially in the fighter or M1/M2 departments, the Terrans have them. A few of their ships are locked behind the main Plot, so you won't get access to them in X3 without getting further along in that.

You've done good in getting your rep up with all the races. That is really the key to many things in X3. Later, once you have your economic power growing, start the Terran Plot. In X3, however, be advised that if you do not immediately start working on improving the Terran economy by using a lot of your traders, there, you'll face problems getting enough weapons/ammo for Terran ships. Eventually, as the Terran economy improves, the god-engine (The engine that controls the economy in the game) will replace Terran stations as needed, so you'll get access to them.

Basically if I don't fly it myself, it WILL die instantly. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? or should I just make a fleet out of M1's and forget the rest?

Everything can be solved with a fleet of M1s.... :)

First, know that everything will not die instantly if you don't fly it, yourself. :) It just takes a bit of learning to get through the initial learning curve. As for what you're doing "wrong", I can't really speak to that, since I don't know what your ships are and what their loadouts are and when/where they're getting destroyed. But, as to helpful tips, I'll try to offer some:

First, avail yourself of the resources online.

http://forum.egosoft.com/index.php?c=2 - Egosoft Forums
http://eng.x3tc.net/x3_tc_map/ - A great info site, maps, ship specs, TC and AP.
http://roguey.co.uk/x3tc/ - Good site, good info.

Next, download this: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=2765992 "XModels 3D Stats and Model Viewer" Install it and use it to check out all the info on each ship/station/ware in the game. One thing its great for is planning for IS combat. By learning where the weapon/turret arcs are on ships, you can become very deadly in IS combat. And, by learning what weapons certain troublesome ships can mount, at a glance, you'll know the sort of threat you're facing. However, just be advised that ships you'll encounter may not always be outfitted with the same weapons or even the best weapons for their class.

Take a look at this thread for info about X3TC weapons. It's a very, very, good and informative thread. (I keep a copy of it for reference) - http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=231887

Download and read through this: http://apricotmappingservice.com/x3handbook.html X3-Handbook by Apricotslice. There's a huge amount of info, there, so just skim through it and read sections that interest you.

On OOS Combat: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=314889 A brief description of some of the mechanics of OOS combat.

Empowered with the above info, you should be able to do exceptionally well, once you adjust your tactics and the weapons your ships use and the tasks that you put them to.

However, it's a lot of info to learn at a glance! So, if you have anything specific, other than "my ships blow'd up an' I don't know why", then I will be glad to help! Post a question and give me some idea of the specific conditions and I, or someone else, will be glad to give you some advice. (Though, I'm just coming back to playing X3 and just only now started AP after a long absence. I still remember quite a bit, since I played it so much, but I'm sure I have forgotten a few things.)

Anyway, post a question or give me a situation in which you need help and I'll provide you with a decent solution. (Nothing's perfect, though!)

[The Gravekeeper]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Originally posted by Sloppy Wolf:

....Basically if I don't fly it myself, it WILL die instantly. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? or should I just make a fleet out of M1's and forget the rest?

I do understand your pain. However, while I'm sure it's hitting you hard, right now, all it takes is a bit of knowledge in order to get past it. For instance, I had around 1500 or so ships, with around 1200 active and doing things a great deal of the time, and I lost relatively few to the things that you are suffering through, right now.

The keys to getting over this rely on your understanding of game mechanics and the acceptance of losses in battles. You will lose ships to combat. But, you can minimize those losses, just like any real commander must learn how to minimize the casualties in their own command.

In Sector and Out of Sector combat is handled differently. This is caused by the necessity of limiting the strain on a computer's hardware, while still providing the gaming experience that X3 provides. You have to learn to outfit ships accordingly, for IS or OS combat. This will often require you to have specific ships that are only ever used in OS combat, while maintaining a fleet of ships that are specifically designed for IS combat. You must also become familiar with individual ships and what their performance characteristics are IS and OS. Not every ship, no matter what its weapons are, is equally capable in IS and OS. For instance, the Teladi Heavy Osprey is a suck-ship in IS combat, mainly because it is so very slow. However, it shines in OS combat, because it's heavily armored and can pack a huge punch in its weapon loadout.

I will try to give you some things to act on, immediately. Be advised, though, it takes awhile to get the hang of large-scale fleet/asset management in X3. It is a complex game. However, the rewards of mastery are outstanding.

It is possible to not get a "verbal" warning when a ship is attacked if it is destroyed in the same instance. It is also possible, under certain unique circumstances, to not get a verbal warning, but I can't remember exactly what it is. (It's not a common situation, though.) But, rest assured, such an instance will be recorded in your Message Log, even if you did not get a verbal warning.

I had a TM with fully fitted M3's for fighter support, but I would lose some on every mission, even missions where the squad way overpowered the enemy, or the TM would simply crash into something.
I've tried OOS combat for some missions with them, that failed badly.

There are no collision boxes in OS. None. So, they can't crash into anything while OS. A TM can carry up to four fighters and four fighters could likely only survive combat with a single fighter, maybe two if outfitted appropriately. In short - A TM fully equipped with fighters is not exactly a formidable foe that would survive, fully, any engagement.

Since collision boxes are active when IS, only order your fighters to undock, when feasible, while you are OS. During docking is when ships are at their greatest risk for collision damage. But, IS, for a TM and its fighters, collision isn't unavoidable. But, it's worrisome enough to always have them undock OS, when possible.

I set up a TM with M5 Haulers for ware cleanup after fights. After the wing got mysteriously destroyed for the sixth time (I jump out of sector, and a couple minutes later I look for them and they're all gone, no warning or "ship under attack" message) I gave that Idea up as a bad idea.

I do this, as well, and it's a good use for a TM/Haulers. However, you must be sure that the sector is free of enemies. They didn't get destroyed "for no reason", I assure you. Something blew them up, they crashed while undocking while you're IS, they ran into an asteroid or another ship while you're IS, etc... Something killed them. So, check your Message Log.

I was gonna jump into a panther but at this point I don't think I want to incorporate anything smaller then an m6 into any type of service and the panther is a smallish carrier. Might as well go tiger. (I like the split) Even the Centaur I was having as a wing mate kept dying against every freaking thing. And I can never get there in time to help.
Combat rank = Assassin

All those are good ships and good choices. The Centaur is a so-so OS ship, but decent early IS with its turret coverage. The Heavy Centaur is a better choice, of course, if you can get one. Both are fairly "squishy", depending upon what they are fighting. Alone, in OS, I wouldn't expect either to survive an engagement by multiple enemies or larger ships, though.

Every faction standing is rank 7 or higher except pirates and Terran. I never enter Terran sectors. Shoot I have every police license I know about. Except Terran.

The Terrans have very nice ships. In fact, they're somewhat over-powered, being heavily armed, fast, and heavily armored. If you want some excellent combat ships, especially in the fighter or M1/M2 departments, the Terrans have them. A few of their ships are locked behind the main Plot, so you won't get access to them in X3 without getting further along in that.

You've done good in getting your rep up with all the races. That is really the key to many things in X3. Later, once you have your economic power growing, start the Terran Plot. In X3, however, be advised that if you do not immediately start working on improving the Terran economy by using a lot of your traders, there, you'll face problems getting enough weapons/ammo for Terran ships. Eventually, as the Terran economy improves, the god-engine (The engine that controls the economy in the game) will replace Terran stations as needed, so you'll get access to them.

Basically if I don't fly it myself, it WILL die instantly. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? or should I just make a fleet out of M1's and forget the rest?

Everything can be solved with a fleet of M1s.... :)

First, know that everything will not die instantly if you don't fly it, yourself. :) It just takes a bit of learning to get through the initial learning curve. As for what you're doing "wrong", I can't really speak to that, since I don't know what your ships are and what their loadouts are and when/where they're getting destroyed. But, as to helpful tips, I'll try to offer some:

First, avail yourself of the resources online.

http://forum.egosoft.com/index.php?c=2 - Egosoft Forums
http://eng.x3tc.net/x3_tc_map/ - A great info site, maps, ship specs, TC and AP.
http://roguey.co.uk/x3tc/ - Good site, good info.

Next, download this: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=2765992 "XModels 3D Stats and Model Viewer" Install it and use it to check out all the info on each ship/station/ware in the game. One thing its great for is planning for IS combat. By learning where the weapon/turret arcs are on ships, you can become very deadly in IS combat. And, by learning what weapons certain troublesome ships can mount, at a glance, you'll know the sort of threat you're facing. However, just be advised that ships you'll encounter may not always be outfitted with the same weapons or even the best weapons for their class.

Take a look at this thread for info about X3TC weapons. It's a very, very, good and informative thread. (I keep a copy of it for reference) - http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=231887

Download and read through this: http://apricotmappingservice.com/x3handbook.html X3-Handbook by Apricotslice. There's a huge amount of info, there, so just skim through it and read sections that interest you.

On OOS Combat: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=314889 A brief description of some of the mechanics of OOS combat.

Empowered with the above info, you should be able to do exceptionally well, once you adjust your tactics and the weapons your ships use and the tasks that you put them to.

However, it's a lot of info to learn at a glance! So, if you have anything specific, other than "my ships blow'd up an' I don't know why", then I will be glad to help! Post a question and give me some idea of the specific conditions and I, or someone else, will be glad to give you some advice. (Though, I'm just coming back to playing X3 and just only now started AP after a long absence. I still remember quite a bit, since I played it so much, but I'm sure I have forgotten a few things.)

Anyway, post a question or give me a situation in which you need help and I'll provide you with a decent solution. (Nothing's perfect, though!)

After all that advice (lovely stuff by the way) the author didn't even reply to say thanks! Shocking. Good effort though.

[Witcher1979]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Originally posted by Sloppy Wolf:

....Basically if I don't fly it myself, it WILL die instantly. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? or should I just make a fleet out of M1's and forget the rest?

I do understand your pain. However, while I'm sure it's hitting you hard, right now, all it takes is a bit of knowledge in order to get past it. For instance, I had around 1500 or so ships, with around 1200 active and doing things a great deal of the time, and I lost relatively few to the things that you are suffering through, right now.

The keys to getting over this rely on your understanding of game mechanics and the acceptance of losses in battles. You will lose ships to combat. But, you can minimize those losses, just like any real commander must learn how to minimize the casualties in their own command.

In Sector and Out of Sector combat is handled differently. This is caused by the necessity of limiting the strain on a computer's hardware, while still providing the gaming experience that X3 provides. You have to learn to outfit ships accordingly, for IS or OS combat. This will often require you to have specific ships that are only ever used in OS combat, while maintaining a fleet of ships that are specifically designed for IS combat. You must also become familiar with individual ships and what their performance characteristics are IS and OS. Not every ship, no matter what its weapons are, is equally capable in IS and OS. For instance, the Teladi Heavy Osprey is a suck-ship in IS combat, mainly because it is so very slow. However, it shines in OS combat, because it's heavily armored and can pack a huge punch in its weapon loadout.

I will try to give you some things to act on, immediately. Be advised, though, it takes awhile to get the hang of large-scale fleet/asset management in X3. It is a complex game. However, the rewards of mastery are outstanding.

It is possible to not get a "verbal" warning when a ship is attacked if it is destroyed in the same instance. It is also possible, under certain unique circumstances, to not get a verbal warning, but I can't remember exactly what it is. (It's not a common situation, though.) But, rest assured, such an instance will be recorded in your Message Log, even if you did not get a verbal warning.

I had a TM with fully fitted M3's for fighter support, but I would lose some on every mission, even missions where the squad way overpowered the enemy, or the TM would simply crash into something.
I've tried OOS combat for some missions with them, that failed badly.

There are no collision boxes in OS. None. So, they can't crash into anything while OS. A TM can carry up to four fighters and four fighters could likely only survive combat with a single fighter, maybe two if outfitted appropriately. In short - A TM fully equipped with fighters is not exactly a formidable foe that would survive, fully, any engagement.

Since collision boxes are active when IS, only order your fighters to undock, when feasible, while you are OS. During docking is when ships are at their greatest risk for collision damage. But, IS, for a TM and its fighters, collision isn't unavoidable. But, it's worrisome enough to always have them undock OS, when possible.

I set up a TM with M5 Haulers for ware cleanup after fights. After the wing got mysteriously destroyed for the sixth time (I jump out of sector, and a couple minutes later I look for them and they're all gone, no warning or "ship under attack" message) I gave that Idea up as a bad idea.

I do this, as well, and it's a good use for a TM/Haulers. However, you must be sure that the sector is free of enemies. They didn't get destroyed "for no reason", I assure you. Something blew them up, they crashed while undocking while you're IS, they ran into an asteroid or another ship while you're IS, etc... Something killed them. So, check your Message Log.

I was gonna jump into a panther but at this point I don't think I want to incorporate anything smaller then an m6 into any type of service and the panther is a smallish carrier. Might as well go tiger. (I like the split) Even the Centaur I was having as a wing mate kept dying against every freaking thing. And I can never get there in time to help.
Combat rank = Assassin

All those are good ships and good choices. The Centaur is a so-so OS ship, but decent early IS with its turret coverage. The Heavy Centaur is a better choice, of course, if you can get one. Both are fairly "squishy", depending upon what they are fighting. Alone, in OS, I wouldn't expect either to survive an engagement by multiple enemies or larger ships, though.

Every faction standing is rank 7 or higher except pirates and Terran. I never enter Terran sectors. Shoot I have every police license I know about. Except Terran.

The Terrans have very nice ships. In fact, they're somewhat over-powered, being heavily armed, fast, and heavily armored. If you want some excellent combat ships, especially in the fighter or M1/M2 departments, the Terrans have them. A few of their ships are locked behind the main Plot, so you won't get access to them in X3 without getting further along in that.

You've done good in getting your rep up with all the races. That is really the key to many things in X3. Later, once you have your economic power growing, start the Terran Plot. In X3, however, be advised that if you do not immediately start working on improving the Terran economy by using a lot of your traders, there, you'll face problems getting enough weapons/ammo for Terran ships. Eventually, as the Terran economy improves, the god-engine (The engine that controls the economy in the game) will replace Terran stations as needed, so you'll get access to them.

Basically if I don't fly it myself, it WILL die instantly. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? or should I just make a fleet out of M1's and forget the rest?

Everything can be solved with a fleet of M1s.... :)

First, know that everything will not die instantly if you don't fly it, yourself. :) It just takes a bit of learning to get through the initial learning curve. As for what you're doing "wrong", I can't really speak to that, since I don't know what your ships are and what their loadouts are and when/where they're getting destroyed. But, as to helpful tips, I'll try to offer some:

First, avail yourself of the resources online.

http://forum.egosoft.com/index.php?c=2 - Egosoft Forums
http://eng.x3tc.net/x3_tc_map/ - A great info site, maps, ship specs, TC and AP.
http://roguey.co.uk/x3tc/ - Good site, good info.

Next, download this: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=2765992 "XModels 3D Stats and Model Viewer" Install it and use it to check out all the info on each ship/station/ware in the game. One thing its great for is planning for IS combat. By learning where the weapon/turret arcs are on ships, you can become very deadly in IS combat. And, by learning what weapons certain troublesome ships can mount, at a glance, you'll know the sort of threat you're facing. However, just be advised that ships you'll encounter may not always be outfitted with the same weapons or even the best weapons for their class.

Take a look at this thread for info about X3TC weapons. It's a very, very, good and informative thread. (I keep a copy of it for reference) - http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=231887

Download and read through this: http://apricotmappingservice.com/x3handbook.html X3-Handbook by Apricotslice. There's a huge amount of info, there, so just skim through it and read sections that interest you.

On OOS Combat: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=314889 A brief description of some of the mechanics of OOS combat.

Empowered with the above info, you should be able to do exceptionally well, once you adjust your tactics and the weapons your ships use and the tasks that you put them to.

However, it's a lot of info to learn at a glance! So, if you have anything specific, other than "my ships blow'd up an' I don't know why", then I will be glad to help! Post a question and give me some idea of the specific conditions and I, or someone else, will be glad to give you some advice. (Though, I'm just coming back to playing X3 and just only now started AP after a long absence. I still remember quite a bit, since I played it so much, but I'm sure I have forgotten a few things.)

Anyway, post a question or give me a situation in which you need help and I'll provide you with a decent solution. (Nothing's perfect, though!)

I am just getting into this and your advice will help me lots. Thanks :)

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Witcher1979:

...

I am just getting into this and your advice will help me lots. Thanks :)

You're welcome! The Egosoft community is a tight-knit group of dedicated X-game fans and we ALL know how tough it is when first starting out. If you ever have any questions, feel free to post them and they will get answered. If you don't get a quick answer here, go register at the Egosoft forums and ask there - You're guarranteed to get an answer.

The Egosoft boards are really one of the few game forums in my experience in gaming, since before teh interwebz..., that are extremely tolerant of "newbies" asking the same question that has been asked over and over and over, through the years. Some groups of players will get irate that "yet another question about xxxx was asked by some noob." That doesn't really happen on the Egosoft forums. (Partly, because the forum search features suck... and everyone knows it. :) )

Enjoy your game! Give it some time so you can learn what you need to know and, sooner than you might think, you'll become a force to be reckoned with!

Originally posted by The Gravekeeper:

After all that advice (lovely stuff by the way) the author didn't even reply to say thanks! Shocking. Good effort though.

Thanks. But, at least I know it might have helped someone, which is all that matters. This is an awesome game. But, it's tough on new players.