Stellaris

Stellaris

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Sirus MacDoom Jul 14, 2022 @ 11:14am
Winning Stellaris is too dependent on pure chance.
I've hit several different versions of the "no point in continuing" event three times now. When the Great Kahn wakes up right next door with a 5 to 1 fleet power advantage, it's game over. The game suddenly becomes so unbalanced that continuing to play is a waste of time. Was that a design goal?
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Showing 16-30 of 66 comments
xycotta Jul 21, 2022 @ 9:04am 
I am pretty sure the Precursors and FEs have already proven you can't win Stellaris. Eventually you are just dust
TomTalking Jul 21, 2022 @ 2:33pm 
Originally posted by Tiasmoon:
Originally posted by TomTalking:
It's not so much that it prevents success, it is that it railroads players into limited playstyles. Some players love conquest others hate it. By forcing certain play styles based on how your galaxy is randomly generated, it prevents players from enjoying their own play style.

You can enjoy a wild variety of playstyles even then. It just means youll have to do better. The worse you are at this game, the more you will feel limited.

Only thing that I would say limits playstyles a lot is x25 crisis at 2300 or lower endgame date. Since the lack of time means less options become viable.

Originally posted by TomTalking:
Some people want to play in a combat and conquest focused galaxy, others want to play peacefully. Having the combat player play in a galaxy of federation builders, and the peaceful player surrounded by warmongers doesn't add to their enjoyment, it just frustrates them.

It's great that the game supports peaceful/warlike play, and wide/tall play. However, players shouldn't be forced to take one of these routes based on RNG, it needs to be a player choice, otherwise half the community will end up forced to use playstyles they don't enjoy, simply because of a bad dice roll.

It IS the players choice.

If you feel that it isnt, it is because you are not experienced enough at the playstyle you are attempting, or you set the difficulty too high relative to your skill/experience level.

A combat player playing in a galaxy full of federations raises the challenge. That might well excite them, rather then frustrate them. A peaceful player surrounded by warmongers can still force peace on them by peaceful means. Or make sure they are being ignored. Only genocidals are exceptions to that.

If you have to rely on RNG, that just means your not good enough to play that playstyle without getting carried.

Baol/Zroni precursor. Rubricator event. Endless Expanse or Asteroid Blastdoor. I consider stuff like that a bonus, never required to achieve my goals. If I play a Xenophile empire reliant on migration and embassies and my first 3 empires are warlike then I will seek out more empires or improve relations with the first empires.

I'm not going to give up just because the circumstances arent ideal or perfect for my intended playthrough.


Honestly, to me it seems like you should lower the difficulty or become modest and realise you arent very good at your attempted playstyles. That way you can learn to become better and have more options available, or if you lower difficulty you dont need to learn.

"Honestly, to me it seems like you should lower the difficulty or become modest and realise you arent very good at your attempted playstyles."

There is no such thing as being "good at expansion" enough to clear through a Fallen Empire that holds the only route in and out of your space.

There is no "find other empires" when you are blocked off behind genocidals.

"I'm not going to give up just because the circumstances arent ideal or perfect for my intended playthrough."

We aren't talking about "not ideal" were talking about it being completely incompatible.

The RNG needs fixing, desperately. In my latest game, it left long periods of nothing happening, followed by Extradimensional Invaders and L-Cluster at the same time, both spawned in a place that meant they had to completely wipe my empire to even reach any others. It'd been a peaceful galaxy, so no one had a fleet even close to being able to take on both those crisis at the same time.

The game before that, they'd just released a broken patch, where the Prethoryn Scourge didn't even advance, because the devs had forgotten to code it properly. And the other empires didn't even upgrade or repair their buildings because the devs had pushed a broken update and then gone on holiday. Another dozens of hours down the drain.

How was I to know that they'd then buffed the pitiful end game crises that I faced before, to instant curb stomp fleet wipes the next time around.

Just because you were lucky and didn't encounter the game braking bugs and appalling balance that the rest of us have had ruin our playthroughs, does not give you the right to just tell everyone else to 'be better'. It's rude in the extreme, think before you speak.
pipo.p Jul 21, 2022 @ 3:09pm 
Two more tips to help:

- decrease the hyperlane density in the settings: this should ensure more choke points, and less corridors between galactic arms.

- play with the Non Clustered Start mod that ensures that empires spawn roughly evenly throughout the galaxy, as opposed to vanilla clustered start (several empires in the same area as yours), or non clustered start (random spawning, possibly still close to you). This allows you to expand and develop quite easily in the first decades.
Tiasmoon Jul 21, 2022 @ 3:39pm 
Originally posted by TomTalking:
Just because you were lucky and didn't encounter the game braking bugs and appalling balance that the rest of us have had ruin our playthroughs, does not give you the right to just tell everyone else to 'be better'. It's rude in the extreme, think before you speak.
If you have major issues that must mean its an issue with the game.
There is no way you could be bad at something, right? Noone could be better then you and have a better experience as a result.

Dont you realisehow extremely rude that assumption is?
It presumes theres no need to learn anything because everyone whos more experienced or skilled in your perspective just straight up doesnt exist. Since you are already the best, it automatically means any fault must lie with another party. In this case the game, and now me.

You dont agree with my arguments therefor I must have been lucky. Because there is no way I could actually have a right or qualification that equals or supersedes your own.
People like that do not exist!

Originally posted by TomTalking:
does not give you the right

I would say 2,500 hours in this game gives me plenty of right to talk about the game's balance and its RNG or lack thereof and how it effects the game.

And whether or not you needing to get better at the game is relevant or not.

Tho ironically this is not an argument I would actually use in a deep discussion between peers as those people also have many hours in the game. (perhaps even several times my own) But it does serve rather well when it comes to people that dont argue but just complain without decent arguments to base those complaints off.
Plus, even someone newer to the game could potentially make some really good arguments. Perhaps ones that someone like me didnt think of.
Tiasmoon Jul 21, 2022 @ 3:59pm 
Originally posted by TomTalking:


There is no such thing as being "good at expansion" enough to clear through a Fallen Empire that holds the only route in and out of your space.

Exceptional rare to the point people make posts about it on reddit, complete with screenshots just to farm karma.

Originally posted by TomTalking:
There is no "find other empires" when you are blocked off behind genocidals.

Which happens how often? This is also something you can influence by forcing empires to spawn. The game gives you the option to effect this to large extend.

Originally posted by TomTalking:
"I'm not going to give up just because the circumstances arent ideal or perfect for my intended playthrough."

We aren't talking about "not ideal" were talking about it being completely incompatible.

That is what you seem to think you are talking about, but from my perspectives what you describe is either ''not ideal'' or unrealistic. (only going to happen once in a blue moon)

Originally posted by TomTalking:
The RNG needs fixing, desperately.

I have seen nothing to suggest that. In fact the opposite. RNG in galaxy creation can create a variety of situations and alter the playthroughs so they dont all feel identical even with different builds. But not to the extend it heavily limits variety in builds.

Again, the only place where I would agree that variety is limited is against high modifier crisis on lower endgame date. Because at that point skill and experience only means so much. Builds that are very inefficient just wont cut it anymore. Some RNG factors can make too much difference at that point.


If you have not played at that level of difficulty, then yes its your skill and experience level that is getting in the way of your enjoyment. There is no shame in dropping down the difficulty when that is the case.

If you arent competing for being the best player at a game I dont see why you would care being told to become better so you can have a better experience.

What is the point in having false pride?

Originally posted by TomTalking:
In my latest game, it left long periods of nothing happening, followed by Extradimensional Invaders and L-Cluster at the same time, both spawned in a place that meant they had to completely wipe my empire to even reach any others. It'd been a peaceful galaxy, so no one had a fleet even close to being able to take on both those crisis at the same time.

Most my last games were peaceful. In one of them I even took part in not a single war. I was still able to handily beat a 5x Crisis. The Grey Tempest is also FAR weaker then the endgame Crisis is, so I dont see why these 2 together would be a problem.

The L-Gates are spawned from the start of the game. Meaning you can account for the threat they pose. Especially if they activate late enough to coincide with the endgame crisis.

Originally posted by TomTalking:
The game before that, they'd just released a broken patch, where the Prethoryn Scourge didn't even advance, because the devs had forgotten to code it properly. And the other empires didn't even upgrade or repair their buildings because the devs had pushed a broken update and then gone on holiday. Another dozens of hours down the drain.

Bugs and balance issues are something a lot of people critise the game for. Me amongst them. I dont see how you could think using that as an argument against me is supposed to help. That aside, that game must have been a while ago as I dont remember these particular bugs.

Originally posted by TomTalking:
How was I to know that they'd then buffed the pitiful end game crises that I faced before, to instant curb stomp fleet wipes the next time around.

By playing the game more? Why are you surprised that when the game changes a lot, you suddenly have different things to learn? Its no different for the rest of us.

Also, keep in mind that Crisis strength has a multiplier in game creation. Are you sure you didnt just set it higher, then didnt encounter the Crisis for a few games and forgot you changed the setting? (because settings persist between games if not changed again)

Originally posted by TomTalking:
appalling balance that the rest of us have had ruin our playthroughs

What makes you think you have the right to say that everyone else had the same experience you did?

I'm somewhat intrigued. Im not beyond making a statement like that myself, but personally I always feel like I can make atleast a decent argument to support my claim in that case.
Wokelander Jul 21, 2022 @ 4:38pm 
Stellaris is not a 'theme park' game and it will punish you, which sometimes can feel very unfair but that's part of the intended gameplay experience.
It might just not be for you OP, but there are plenty of us who enjoy spending dozens of hours on ironman games that can go south at a moments notice due to lack of planning, missing something vital or sometimes just plain bad luck.
Remember: Losing is FUN
Last edited by Wokelander; Jul 21, 2022 @ 4:39pm
shadain597 Jul 21, 2022 @ 4:42pm 
Originally posted by Tiasmoon:
Originally posted by TomTalking:
Just because you were lucky and didn't encounter the game braking bugs and appalling balance that the rest of us have had ruin our playthroughs, does not give you the right to just tell everyone else to 'be better'. It's rude in the extreme, think before you speak.
If you have major issues that must mean its an issue with the game.
There is no way you could be bad at something, right? Noone could be better then you and have a better experience as a result.

Dont you realisehow extremely rude that assumption is?
It presumes theres no need to learn anything because everyone whos more experienced or skilled in your perspective just straight up doesnt exist. Since you are already the best, it automatically means any fault must lie with another party. In this case the game, and now me.

You dont agree with my arguments therefor I must have been lucky. Because there is no way I could actually have a right or qualification that equals or supersedes your own.
People like that do not exist!
Ironically, you and at least one other are essentially arguing the opposite: nothing could possibly be improved on in the game; anyone who disagrees just needs to "get good."

The both of you seem to be arguing past one another to some extent. I get that randomness is basically "part of the package" and can even be desirable. A compelling argument can be made that the "true" experience of the game is creating your own faction, then adapting them during gameplay to deal with whatever universe they happen to be stuck in. It certainly helps with replay value.

But, on the other hand, what is so wrong about having additional, optional control over a game's singleplayer settings? In a game that is going to be a significant time-sink, why shouldn't players be able to customize it to the point of having a specific, desired scenario?
VoiD Jul 21, 2022 @ 5:04pm 
Originally posted by shadain597:
Originally posted by Tiasmoon:
If you have major issues that must mean its an issue with the game.
There is no way you could be bad at something, right? Noone could be better then you and have a better experience as a result.

Dont you realisehow extremely rude that assumption is?
It presumes theres no need to learn anything because everyone whos more experienced or skilled in your perspective just straight up doesnt exist. Since you are already the best, it automatically means any fault must lie with another party. In this case the game, and now me.

You dont agree with my arguments therefor I must have been lucky. Because there is no way I could actually have a right or qualification that equals or supersedes your own.
People like that do not exist!
Ironically, you and at least one other are essentially arguing the opposite: nothing could possibly be improved on in the game; anyone who disagrees just needs to "get good."

The both of you seem to be arguing past one another to some extent. I get that randomness is basically "part of the package" and can even be desirable. A compelling argument can be made that the "true" experience of the game is creating your own faction, then adapting them during gameplay to deal with whatever universe they happen to be stuck in. It certainly helps with replay value.

But, on the other hand, what is so wrong about having additional, optional control over a game's singleplayer settings? In a game that is going to be a significant time-sink, why shouldn't players be able to customize it to the point of having a specific, desired scenario?
*Must resist the urge to be that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that tells you that there are already mods to fix every one of your issues, even though that will not allow you to get achievements.*
Wokelander Jul 21, 2022 @ 5:06pm 
Originally posted by VoiD:
Originally posted by shadain597:
Ironically, you and at least one other are essentially arguing the opposite: nothing could possibly be improved on in the game; anyone who disagrees just needs to "get good."

The both of you seem to be arguing past one another to some extent. I get that randomness is basically "part of the package" and can even be desirable. A compelling argument can be made that the "true" experience of the game is creating your own faction, then adapting them during gameplay to deal with whatever universe they happen to be stuck in. It certainly helps with replay value.

But, on the other hand, what is so wrong about having additional, optional control over a game's singleplayer settings? In a game that is going to be a significant time-sink, why shouldn't players be able to customize it to the point of having a specific, desired scenario?
*Must resist the urge to be that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that tells you that there are already mods to fix every one of your issues, even though that will not allow you to get achievements.*

Not to mention a bunch of game settings to tweak and customize your playing experience
VoiD Jul 21, 2022 @ 5:11pm 
By the way, I've never tried it but I heard the mods Startech and Starnet can fix all the RNG in stellaris.

By making new players lose every game, 100%, no RNG involved, is that accurate?
Ryika Jul 21, 2022 @ 5:15pm 
Originally posted by shadain597:
But, on the other hand, what is so wrong about having additional, optional control over a game's singleplayer settings? In a game that is going to be a significant time-sink, why shouldn't players be able to customize it to the point of having a specific, desired scenario?
This thread demonstrates one of the reasons against giving certain options pretty well I think - people will use them to get around problems instead of fixing them, without even understanding that they can fix them. And more generally, the more setup options there are, the less able the developers of a game will be to offer a balanced gameplay experience for the average player.

More options are usually good, but it's not universally so. Options that allow players to take hurdles out of the game are always something to be careful with.
Wokelander Jul 21, 2022 @ 5:18pm 
You can always make a mod if you want your gameplay experience to be significantly different than what the game was built for. Plenty of people already have, actually
Kowalskii Jul 21, 2022 @ 5:38pm 
Originally posted by Dr. Knowitall:
I've hit several different versions of the "no point in continuing" event three times now. When the Great Kahn wakes up right next door with a 5 to 1 fleet power advantage, it's game over. The game suddenly becomes so unbalanced that continuing to play is a waste of time. Was that a design goal?

You aren't researching quick enough crisis spawns and i easily have enough tech to absolutely stomp MID game. keep beefing up create vassals that feed you and you are set. i find solo games rather boring it feels to easy
Tiasmoon Jul 21, 2022 @ 8:30pm 
Originally posted by VoiD:
*Must resist the urge to be that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that tells you that there are already mods to fix every one of your issues, even though that will not allow you to get achievements.*

Its good to resist the urge to respond to posts like that. Dont become like me who can never succeed that Willpower check. You just end up wasting a lot of time on talking to a wall.
Tiasmoon Jul 21, 2022 @ 9:07pm 
Originally posted by shadain597:
Ironically, you and at least one other are essentially arguing the opposite: nothing could possibly be improved on in the game; anyone who disagrees just needs to "get good."

Could you perhaps link what imaginary posts you saw that gave that impression in your head? :Tio:

I thought it was clear enough that my advice to get better at the game was just that: advice that would end up helping them. After all, to reitterate my earlier point: their skill/experience being relatively low compared to their difficulty level is core to most of their issues with the game.

Their posts are about playstyles in the game being too dependent on RNG. And that is just not the case. Relying on RNG is a sign of not being good enough to comfortable play casually on that difficulty level. Or with that specific build.

Which are all arguments ive already used before. So if you are really eager to argue that further, I suggest reading those posts that you apparently skipped. :Musse:
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Date Posted: Jul 14, 2022 @ 11:14am
Posts: 66