Stellaris
Can someone explain fleet power to me?
In my current game I have roughly the same number of ships (70 ish total), we're equivalent (or I have the slight advantage) in tech and their main fleet is made up mostly of corvettes (with a few destroyers) and yet their stack of fifty eight ships has a strength of 7.4k while mine of fifty has 4.7k. I have a mix of destroyers, frigates and corvettes.

I feel like I'm missing something really major here. How is there such a big difference? They might be ahead in military tech some due to being a military based civ but it's not that big of a difference as far as I can tell.

AFAIK I'm on "normal" difficulty of Ensign with neither the player or AI getting advantages. I'm just really confused.
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Overtuned, Driven Annihilator, Fleet Supremacy, Indoctrinated Youth, Masterful Zenith, the nice +339% Fleet Fire Rate.
Some initial thoughts:

Versatility is a very weak pick for a tradition tree. Supremacy is very good pick for war related stuff and otherwise an economy related tree would be better.

Ship design. Since 3.6 had a ship redesign I wont be able to get accurate numbers from this. (maybe someone else can help out there)

You have your ships outfit with all energy weapons or kinetic weapons. That is usually a bad idea. For a beginner player its best to mix your weapons.
So on a corvette that would mean 1 kinetic, 1 energy, 1 something else. In 3.6 PD as the third slot makes the most sense since the AI uses missiles a lot.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/891682581463048272/1048679328105381908/image.png

It looks like their weapons were pretty outdated, so they didnt win due to better tech. However if you had PD it would nullify a large portion of their damage.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/891682581463048272/1048678264031432744/image.png?width=597&height=910

Looking at the information on their ships it seems like they got a large bonus to ship firing rate (+49%) which adds a lot to their firepower and also fleet power. Its not surprising they won with bonus like that.

They get (9+5)% from their admiral, another 20% from being Fanatic Militarist, probably another 10% from Supremacy tradition. So that accounts 44% of that.
The other bonus like +25% armor, +25% shields are from strategic resource edicts. You can active those to get some ship bonus in exchange for a monthly upkeep.

In your case since you were using mostly energy weapons, +25% to energy weapons (Focusing Crystals Edict) would have helped a lot. If you lack the crystals, as long as you have access to them you can buy more on the market and even set up a monthly trade deal there.

Economy & pop stuff:

As Machine Empire you dont want to build bio-reactors. No point since you have plenty of energy districts you can use for energy, and these reactors just take up valuable building slots. You could use those for research labs etc instead.

You are wasting a lot of pops by having them work Maintenance Drone jobs. As Machine Empire you cant get around to needing a bunch of those. However when you have 12 of them (+48 amneties) and have +45 amneties to spare, you got too many of them.

Instead you can use them for jobs like energy, minerals, alloys, or research.
Ideally you want to only keep enough amneties as Machine Empire that you are barely in the green. Anything above that can work a better job.

Overall amount of Pops and planets isnt very high, but not critically weak either. In fact looking at the current state of the save, this wouldnt be hard to salvage for an experienced player. Even with the war thrown into the mix as the attackers dont have any claims on your systems (yet) and you have a healthy amounts of alloys as well as a large energy & mineral buffer.


Having Starhold (tier 2 starbase) tech would have made a lot of difference, tho. Same with using PD corvettes from the start.
Ultima modifica da Tiasmoon; 3 dic 2022, ore 11:35
Messaggio originale di Tiasmoon:
Some initial thoughts:

Versatility is a very weak pick for a tradition tree. Supremacy is very good pick for war related stuff and otherwise an economy related tree would be better.

Ship design. Since 3.6 had a ship redesign I wont be able to get accurate numbers from this. (maybe someone else can help out there)

You have your ships outfit with all energy weapons or kinetic weapons. That is usually a bad idea. For a beginner player its best to mix your weapons.
So on a corvette that would mean 1 kinetic, 1 energy, 1 something else. In 3.6 PD as the third slot makes the most sense since the AI uses missiles a lot.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/891682581463048272/1048679328105381908/image.png

It looks like their weapons were pretty outdated, so they didnt win due to better tech. However if you had PD it would nullify a large portion of their damage.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/891682581463048272/1048678264031432744/image.png?width=597&height=910

Looking at the information on their ships it seems like they got a large bonus to ship firing rate (+49%) which adds a lot to their firepower and also fleet power. Its not surprising they won with bonus like that.

They get (9+5)% from their admiral, another 20% from being Fanatic Militarist, probably another 10% from Supremacy tradition. So that accounts 44% of that.
The other bonus like +25% armor, +25% shields are from strategic resource edicts. You can active those to get some ship bonus in exchange for a monthly upkeep.

In your case since you were using mostly energy weapons, +25% to energy weapons (Focusing Crystals Edict) would have helped a lot. If you lack the crystals, as long as you have access to them you can buy more on the market and even set up a monthly trade deal there.

Economy & pop stuff:

As Machine Empire you dont want to build bio-reactors. No point since you have plenty of energy districts you can use for energy, and these reactors just take up valuable building slots. You could use those for research labs etc instead.

You are wasting a lot of pops by having them work Maintenance Drone jobs. As Machine Empire you cant get around to needing a bunch of those. However when you have 12 of them (+48 amneties) and have +45 amneties to spare, you got too many of them.

Instead you can use them for jobs like energy, minerals, alloys, or research.
Ideally you want to only keep enough amneties as Machine Empire that you are barely in the green. Anything above that can work a better job.

Overall amount of Pops and planets isnt very high, but not critically weak either. In fact looking at the current state of the save, this wouldnt be hard to salvage for an experienced player. Even with the war thrown into the mix as the attackers dont have any claims on your systems (yet) and you have a healthy amounts of alloys as well as a large energy & mineral buffer.


Having Starhold (tier 2 starbase) tech would have made a lot of difference, tho. Same with using PD corvettes from the start.

Good stuff. All valid points. I think at the time I built those bio reactors I was having severe energy problems but I'm stuck on the idea that I need a surplus of everything so that if I run out of something I have a buffer. But the more optimal way to play would be to not really care other then minerals and alloys as long as I'm in the plus.

The war in particular I got sucked into. I wasn't exactly ready for a two on two war on either side of me when my ally got attacked. That's my fault for allying with a weak empire but they were literally my only friend. If it wasn't on either side of me I could probably fight it but with my empire lay out due to galaxy generation trying to fight a two prong war. Normally I typically play turtle, I could likely hold off one of those empires through defense but I was forced into a more aggressive situation.

But I was just really confused by how massive the difference in fleet power was, but I guess fire rate counts for a lot of that? I didn't know fleet power counted in bonuses and admiral abilities as well.

I genuinely appreciate the help in trying to understand what I'm doing wrong. Most of my time in Stellaris is back in the old days before they overhauled almost every single mechanic in the game.
The war wouldnt have been as bad if the AI hadnt also invited another empire to join. They (and the player as well) randomly has that available as option I guess if the other empire is nearby and also hates the target.

Keep in mind that strategy matters too.

In case of this war I (who has played too many strategy games, so see my pov as a ''best case'' result) could have likely won it with the ships and alloys available at the time. So its not an unwinnable war.

Those 5k alloys for example could have been another 30~50 corvettes, add them to your previous fleets and you could have waiting for them to attack one of your border starbases. Its always a good idea to keep an eye out on where their fleets are at, and what the best position is to defend against them. Usually that will be a starbase. If you have the time and extra resources you can reinforce your border starbases (the ones where you assume you'll be most likely to be attacked) with a few defense platforms. They wont have much firepower, but together with the starbase they will soak a lot of damage and make the enemy ships less effective at killing your fleets.


In the game state as per the save you uploaded I would heal up your fleets first (by taking the nearby ally starbase) and then destroy the enemy fleet near there. Then proceed either down south to the starbase (building shipyards there at the same time) or west to retake your capital starbase. Avoiding their main fleet meanwhile while restoring ship production. I'd also change the ship designs to be PD (point defense, instead of flak) + 1 energy, 1 energy siphon (the space creature tech you had available for researcy) then using Focusing Crystal to boost the damage of those.

I'd finally engage their main fleet at one of your starbases after having retaken it.

Its hard to say exactly what else would happen as the AI has the tendency to keep fleets in reserve, and I noticed the other empire didnt have any visible fleets either. Since neither empire had claims on yours it seemed a very low risk war, tho. However you did have almost maxed influence meaning you could capture a lot of their territory if you could turn the tide of the war.


A note on starbases:

Starbases are usually pretty weak in terms of the damage they deal or the fleetpower they have. This is mainly because their huge hitpoints inflations the number. However you can also use this to your benefit and have the starbase soak a lot of damage that would have destroyed your ships. There's a trick to this, altho im unsure if the 3.6 update changed it or not. (since they changed ship behaviour in a few ways)

If the starbase is the last to be engaged the fleets will waste a lot of damage on a low fire power base instead of destroying the ships that are killing them. If you were to position your fleets between your starbase and the incoming fleet, the enemy would first engage your fleet and then the starbase, focusing mostly on the later.
Messaggio originale di Hawk:
But I was just really confused by how massive the difference in fleet power was, but I guess fire rate counts for a lot of that? I didn't know fleet power counted in bonuses and admiral abilities as well.

Pretty much. The other bonus count too, but its mainly that huge difference there. You have some bonus damage as well, but you'd still need maybe 30% more ships then them to be ''equal''.

Fleet power includes all bonus to any of the relevant stats used in its calculation. These are mainly +% weapon damage and +% fire rate, but defensive stats effect it as well to some degree.
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Data di pubblicazione: 1 dic 2022, ore 22:32
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