Why block movement through other empires?

[ReqMan]

Am I the only one that thinks this game would be SO much better if we could move through sectors "owned" by other empires? It just doesn't make sense to me to deny movement.

I had neighbouring empires who had a high value of me, but wouldnt allow my puny science vessel into their sectors, but if I suddenly declare war with a huge fleet next to them, they let me in?? Huh?
It's like they have force fields around their empires that they bring down if you declare war. It just doesnt make sense and totally destroys the imersion for me that something like this happens.

I can just imagine the Romulans saying, no, we cant cross the neutral zone because the Federation told us not to. Well, we could if we declared war first.

Is there any way to allow this via a mod or setting I haven't seen?

[avocado]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von EDEM:

NO, the problem is that it is much too difficult to gain access on higher difficulties, especially when you just made war. Here let me give you a fun example: you conquer an empire, your ships get black flagged at the end of the war and arrive at a recently conquered planet, but you play as a hyper lane race and the hyper lanes are only available through enemy territory so your entire fleet is STUCK for 10YEARS! What idiot mechanic is that. My whole fleet got stuck and I had to declare another war just to get them back into my territory.

Ask him for military access, or you just dont declare war against someone where you need military access. Otherwise if an another empire declared war against you, they will be also forced to ask for military access.

[mastaflex]

What's wrong with just opening the diplomatic screen and agreeing to open borders with the other nation?

[Scourge012]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von EDEM:

NO, the problem is that it is much too difficult to gain access on higher difficulties, especially when you just made war. Here let me give you a fun example: you conquer an empire, your ships get black flagged at the end of the war and arrive at a recently conquered planet, but you play as a hyper lane race and the hyper lanes are only available through enemy territory so your entire fleet is STUCK for 10YEARS! What idiot mechanic is that. My whole fleet got stuck and I had to declare another war just to get them back into my territory.

Sounds like someone's territorial demands ignored the "terrain" of the lanes and practical considerations of the map. You were playing "let's make pretty colored splotches on the map" and not considering how you would travel or administer the actual terroritory you were acquiring.

In this game you make your own war-goals. If the the map looks stupid after the war is done it's your fault.

[avocado]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DeadlyDanDaMan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lysimarkos:

That is an interesting idea. Generally I'd prefer movement restriction as the others have suggested but that idea has some promise.

Yeah, I guess I could see that. Like a sensor restriction. You are free to move about, but no sensors allowed. Interesting idea indeed.

After establishing an neutral communication channel with an empire, the neutral empire decides to send an observation drone into your "borders" without asking for permission.

Would you ask him, after this movement, to declare war against him?

[Straybow]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von bancha:

Would you ask him, after this movement, to declare war against him?

Yes/No/maybe depends on the wider context. Empires could give ultimatums.

Problem with more complex systems is that more things can go wrong as well as players not understanding the underlying mechanics.

[Sohei]

I think free movement across borders should be allowed with just a warning popup to make sure you intended to cross over. Then as long as you are not detected there is no penalty. If detected however, there should be a severe loss of relations and attitude towards you. It would also make sense for your fleet to be flagged as hostile to them until you leave so they can attack you freely. There probably should be some chance for htis border incident to escalate to war.

[avocado]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lysimarkos:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von bancha:

Would you ask him, after this movement, to declare war against him?

Yes/No/maybe depends on the wider context. Empires could give ultimatums.

Problem with more complex systems is that more things can go wrong as well as players not understanding the underlying mechanics.

The ultimatum is already set. Dont come in my determined border without asking me.

Maybe we can choose after establishing an connection, what rights the other empire have in our borders. But if you look at the diplomatic options, this option is there.

[avocado]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Sohei:

I think free movement across borders should be allowed with just a warning popup to make sure you intended to cross over. Then as long as you are not detected there is no penalty. If detected however, there should be a severe loss of relations and attitude towards you. It would also make sense for your fleet to be flagged as hostile to them until you leave so they can attack you freely. There probably should be some chance for htis border incident to escalate to war.

This sounds cool.

[Straybow]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von bancha:

The ultimatum is already set. Dont come in my determined border without asking me.

It isn't really though. Say the other empire was stronger and on the way to a war, I might not want to let them through but considering the situation it might just be better to let it slide. If I were a militarist/fanatic xenophobe my people might get a temporary happiness debuff from my lack of a spine.

[avocado]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lysimarkos:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von bancha:

The ultimatum is already set. Dont come in my determined border without asking me.

It isn't really though. Say the other empire was stronger and on the way to a war, I might not want to let them through but considering the situation it might just be better to let it slide. If I were a militarist/fanatic xenophobe my people might get a temporary happiness debuff from my lack of a spine.

Look at Sohei's post #21, maybe this is the solution?

[Straybow]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von bancha:

Look at Sohei's post #21, maybe this is the solution?

It is basically we can have our 2260 U-2 incident. Actually putting it into practice would be trickier then it may first appear. We will never again let that filthy band into our borders.

[Felicity]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ReqMan:

Yes, but shouldnt it be MY choice whether I go into their territory? If they take that as an act of war, so be it! Maybe they see that I'm just passing though and let me go. Maybe they give me a warning. There are many options, and outcomes, just like in real life.

What happens in this game is not realistic at all, and it detracts from the immersion to have such a gamey, unthematic rule. It also takes away so many possibilities.

The game would be so much better if you could go where you want, but there may be reprocusions for what you do.
Furthermore, you could then start gettng into cloaking technologies, and communication jamming techs so that you could effectly start wars between two other empires by cloaking/jamming while destroying things between them so they think it was each other. THAT would be amazing!

Allowing free movement, and the consequences of that movement, would open up so many opportunities for this game, and also be far more realistic and immersive.
How can we make it happen? Please!?

In real life we have extremely strict procedures about border access with foreign nations. There are even -more- restrictions IRL than in this game, so that's not really a good argument. (Source: military aircrew).

I do agree there should be ways to get ships into their territory somehow, or at least let there be some more permissive ways in diplomacy.

The problem is mainly that diplomacy is trash right now and there's no depth.

[Mr_Trip]

Yo, neighbouring bug guys who live next sector over who I have a ridiculously good relationship with and have mutual embassies, non agression packs and guarantees of independance between us, can I fly civilian ships in your space for 10 years? -1000 chance? Cool, ♥♥♥♥ you and your hive queen.

[RodHull]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Sohei:

I think free movement across borders should be allowed with just a warning popup to make sure you intended to cross over. Then as long as you are not detected there is no penalty. If detected however, there should be a severe loss of relations and attitude towards you. It would also make sense for your fleet to be flagged as hostile to them until you leave so they can attack you freely. There probably should be some chance for htis border incident to escalate to war.

Except of course as we all know you always detect anything inside your own space 'HOSTILE FLEET DETECTED' at which point they'd declare war on you or eject you the net result be identical to the current implementation, so really I cant see the problem. Most games like this use similar mechanics, the difference normally is they are turns based, so for example in endless legend i can quickly run through my enemies territory so long as I dont end the turn in there cause up till then hes dormant and wont recognise the incursion due to the turn based nature of the game, likewise I can run in interact with a map feature or quest location and then end turn, yeah I get auto ejected but end result was I got what I needed.

What Im getting at is usually the mechanics in those games is near identical the difference is they are turns based which allows people to cheese the system, in this its real time so they auto detect you (just like you do with them)

Lets pretend they implemented a warning relations loss system as suggested, suddenly in SP games all thsoe asshat xenophobe expansionists can just wander around in your empire and find the odd areas of black space and plonk planets down in it (you know like old versions of civ and we all know how annoying that was) whats that you say well then you'd just ask them to leave or declare war... what like the current system you mean

Also in MP it would be horrific, it would totally unbalance the FTL methods, it would make expansion a total joke of people grabbing blobs of land all over the place... No this system is much better in a real time game than the usual way its handled.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Kolreth:

Yo, neighbouring bug guys who live next sector over who I have a ridiculously good relationship with and have mutual embassies, non agression packs and guarantees of independance between us, can I fly civilian ships in your space for 10 years? -1000 chance? Cool, ♥♥♥♥ you and your hive queen.

Certain conditions make it highly unlikely, if they are an alliance for a start or certain ethos.

[Sohei]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von RodHull:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Sohei:

I think free movement across borders should be allowed with just a warning popup to make sure you intended to cross over.

Except of course as we all know you always detect anything inside your own space 'HOSTILE FLEET DETECTED' at which point they'd declare war on you or eject you the net result be identical to the current implementation, so really I cant see the problem.

You do not get a warning until they enter your sensor range. If they were in an outlying system that is in your borders but you have not yet put anything in and the sensors from neighboring systems did not cover that system then you would not know about it. If you happend to have a ship in the system then the ship's sensors would detect them. But an empty system with no sensor coverage is a blind spot.

It would mostly be useful just to sneak by along the edge of some territory to get somewhere else when you would otherwise be blocked.