Aquatics civic/origin/trait needs a bit of re-balancing IMO

[retheu]

Hey guys, I've been playing around a bit with the aquatics and even though i enjoy the flavor the civic, trait and origins add i must say i'm a slightly disappointed by the balancing/limits.

I understand that not everything in the game should me ''meta'', some choices are obviously better then others and that's completely fine. I do however feel like that options (be it civics, origins, etc.) should be somewhat compelling. In the case of some of the newly added content i find myself less compelled to choose them, here's why.


Anglers

I like the concept here, it adds flavor to the agriculture districts which is nice, but the civic is simple not worth it if we look at the numbers. The amount of resources gained from the anglers combined with the pearl divers doesn't keep up with the upkeep/efficiency of the pops compared to regular artisans (or better yet artificers) and farmers. Farmers provide in general about 6 food whilst anglers provide a nice 8 food and 2 trade value. artisans provide about 6 consumer goods at the cost of 6 minerals, whilst pearl divers provide 3 consumer goods and 2 trade value at the cost of 2 food and 2 minerals. Lets say we build 2 districts in 2 different situations.

Situation A (default): 1 food district and 1 artisan district - resources gained: 12 food, 12 consumer goods - upkeep: 6 minerals.

Situation B (anglers): 2 angler districts - resources gained: 16 food, 6 consumer goods, 8 trade value - upkeep: 4 minerals, 4 food.

If we now calculate the worth of the resources in energy credits the comparison is made quite clear. The values (as dictated by the Stellaris wiki) tell us that basic resources (food, minerals) are worth 1 energy, whilst consumer goods are worth 2 energy, 1 trade value will be 1 energy in this example. This means that the net gain from situation A (default) is 30 energy, for situation B (angler) the net gain is 28 energy. Now this doesn't make any sense to me simply because from a numbers perspective we can argue that not taking anglers is economically more profitable than taking the civic (this comparison becomes even worse when compared against something like artificers).


Here Be Dragons

I absolutely love this origin, i think its one of (if not) the most unique origins in the game. That being said, even though the balancing here is somewhat decent, the limits on dragons are slightly disappointing in my opinion. But before we start lets again compare, this time between the dragons and my endgame battleships

The cost of a dragon is 500 gas, 500 crystals and 100 living metal, in total this is worth 12k energy. With no repeatable techs unlocked the military power of the dragon is 6.8k. The cost of an endgame battleship is approximately 1700 alloys, 11 gas and 4 crystals, rounded up this is 7k in energy (my battleships run 3x armor, 3x shields, X weaponslot and 4 neutron launchers). with no repeatable techs unlocked the military power of these battleships is somewhere around 2.7k. this means that the dragons are roughly 1.7 times more expensive than battleships but are also roughly 2.5 times more powerful in terms of ''raw'' military power. Although the military power of the dragons might be slightly inflated compared to the battleships due to weapon modifiers (+/- dmg against hull/armor/shields where the dragons have mostly -20% dmg against shields) i think its fair to say they are at least twice as strong as battleships and are twice as cheap compared to said battleships in terms of energy cost. That being said, battleships still offer quite the versatility because battleships can be refitted/designed against specific defenses (hull/armor/shields).

Even though the dragons are somewhat stronger than battleships in terms of ''raw'' power, what bothers me is that they are not that much stronger compared to the battleships whilst the dragons have quite restricting limits on them such as maximum capacity (10 dragons at max) and versatility (cannot be modified). Besides this point it takes quite the amount of effort and time to actually unlock them, and in order to make the dragons access to living metal is required.

In my opinion these dragons should either be less restricted (for example higher building limit/design-able) or be quite a lot stronger than the endgame battleships (maybe comparable to the actual leviathans or the mother dragon). Now i could understand that the latter option (stronger dragons) could impose balancing issues, so in order to counter this the dragons could for example gradually grow in power (just like our favorite amoeba Bubbles).
The reason for ''buffing'' the Here be dragons origin is based on MY assumption that these dragons should feel like something actually special instead of just 2 battleships stacked together with a nice skin on top of it.


Aquatic species trait

The aquatic species trait offers a fun and somewhat specialized play style in my opinion. Its quite balanced with the positive effects on ocean worlds and gives the player the incentive to colonize and make use of them. I really like the idea that this goes hand in hand with the new deluge colossus weapon where we can instantly make new ocean worlds. Even though my experience with the trait has been quite positive i do feel like a slight tweak in terms of balance might be in order. The cost of the trait currently is 1 trait point and 1 trait pick (where in the previous version it was 0), i think the cost should either be 1 trait OR 1 pick a bit comparable to the lithoid/necroid trait (which are free but just like the aquatic trait also have a positive and a negative effect). Some of you might think i'm nitpicking here (which is quite fair), but since the trait is locked (cannot be removed) in both the Ocean paradise origin and the anglers civic the cost of the trait becomes a bit too much for what it offers.


Thanks for reading this (long) post. My intention was to give a bit of constructive criticism, and i truly hope this point comes across. I think the Stellaris team has done an amazing job and i am grateful to be able to play this amazing game!

Please keep in mind these are simply my opinions, i'm not expecting any changes and you are completely free to agree/disagree. I am very curious as to what the rest of the community thinks of the new content.

[Ramonkey]

In situation A the mineral upkeep is 12, not 6. Because you have 2 artisan jobs with 6 upkeep each. This puts the net profit in A at 24 instead of 30

[Elitewrecker PT]

And the trade value of anglers can be converted to consumer goods too.
And they're workers so - slavery output bonus, and smaller pop upkeep than specialists.

[Creep Gnome]

Elitewrecker PT님이 먼저 게시:

And the trade value of anglers can be converted to consumer goods too.
And they're workers so - slavery output bonus, and smaller pop upkeep than specialists.

Anglers (the food-producing job) are workers. Pearl Divers (the Trade/CG job) are specialists.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2662041094

[Sepherix]

So anglers are better artificers. Mh.
Everything in this pack seems to be "X but better". Why play life seeded when you have life seeded but you can colonise other planets because you're not at 0% habitability anyway. And it takes a whopping early game tech to turn a world that's unsuitable into a suitable one along with 10k credits, whoo... Challenging... Whoa..

[Heimdall313]

Comparing dragon to endgame battleship is moot considering an endgame battleship is not going to stop or deter a 20 corvette rush.
6.8k is absolutely going to stop anything dumb enough to rush you, and could be used against things like Amoeba roamers to secure a choke point if that dragon is movable.

[Half Phased]

Anglers is definitely the most wacky civic open to regular empires currently. By building a megacorp for trade value maximization, its possible to start the game with 110 trade value on your homeworld, and if you take the mercantile tradition tree you can be making 40+ unity a month by 2205.

I got to 221 trade value on my homeworld by 2217, making 60 unity a month. Burn through the tradition trees and get a trade federation set up. You’ll be set for energy credits, consumer goods and unity. It’s ridiculous just how high you can push trade value at the start of the game. And should the game give you ocean, continental or tropical worlds nearby, its going to be interesting.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Creep Gnome님이 먼저 게시:

Elitewrecker PT님이 먼저 게시:

And the trade value of anglers can be converted to consumer goods too.
And they're workers so - slavery output bonus, and smaller pop upkeep than specialists.

Anglers (the food-producing job) are workers. Pearl Divers (the Trade/CG job) are specialists.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2662041094

Oh, well nevermind the boost for those at least.

[Tiasmoon]

Initial thoughts:

-No version of Anglers available for hiveminds, the empire type that actually uses food a lot.
-Aquatic being 1 point, 1 pick despite its good benefits requiring an origin, ascension perk or specific civics.
-30 size planet origin with Gaia-ish modifiers that doesnt remove preference (aka: a better life-seeded), in a game version where size only matters up to a certain, much lower extend.
-Trade Value and Consumer Goods.. why does every recent addition seem to have these? If Angler didnt exist on including those, it would be a much better Civic.. and also make more sense.
-Angler description says it gives the trait, but it actually requires it, rather then giving it for free.
-With Angler requiring Aquatic, which requires an Oceanic preference.. a lot of origins cant pick the Civic. This also means that for mechanical reasons its a Locked Civic.. which further limits the Civic. I can see this Civic as being a good middle of the game pick, except with it being locked thats not possible.

Half Phased님이 먼저 게시:

Anglers is definitely the most wacky civic open to regular empires currently. By building a megacorp for trade value maximization, its possible to start the game with 110 trade value on your homeworld, and if you take the mercantile tradition tree you can be making 40+ unity a month by 2205.

I got to 221 trade value on my homeworld by 2217, making 60 unity a month. Burn through the tradition trees and get a trade federation set up. You’ll be set for energy credits, consumer goods and unity. It’s ridiculous just how high you can push trade value at the start of the game. And should the game give you ocean, continental or tropical worlds nearby, its going to be interesting.

How much of that is down to the other parts of the build? I'm guessing most of it.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Tiasmoon님이 먼저 게시:

-Aquatic being 1 point, 1 pick despite its good benefits requiring an origin, ascension perk or specific civics.

I would make the argument that the trait is good on its own, all it really "requires" is using a ocean world as the home system.

It's +20% Habitability (so 100% Habitability right away in the early game), -10% housing usage and +10% worker output on at least 3 worlds assuming you don't use a origin that replaces guaranteed habitable worlds and use the default guaranteed habitable world settings. For 1 trait point that isn't bad at all and i imagine it would be a auto pick for most empire types if it was free (not all, but many).

That said, it off course come with the downside of not liking "dry and frozen" worlds having worse habitability on them. Depending on RNG this can be a huge issue or a non issue.

[Half Phased]

Tiasmoon님이 먼저 게시:

Half Phased님이 먼저 게시:

Anglers is definitely the most wacky civic open to regular empires currently. By building a megacorp for trade value maximization, its possible to start the game with 110 trade value on your homeworld, and if you take the mercantile tradition tree you can be making 40+ unity a month by 2205.

I got to 221 trade value on my homeworld by 2217, making 60 unity a month. Burn through the tradition trees and get a trade federation set up. You’ll be set for energy credits, consumer goods and unity. It’s ridiculous just how high you can push trade value at the start of the game. And should the game give you ocean, continental or tropical worlds nearby, its going to be interesting.

How much of that is down to the other parts of the build? I'm guessing most of it.

Megacorp + Fanatic Xenophile + Egalitarian (swap with pacifist if you want more trade value, I went for something where I could declare war if I needed to expand) + Anglers Civic + Free Traders Civic + Thrifty trait + Ocean Paradise

It beat my previous maximised trade value empire, which was basically the same except it swapped out Ocean Paradise for void dwellers, by about 20 trade value at game start.

Comparison between the two builds is that the Angler/Ocean Paradise can be a bit more starved for extra habitable surfaces (and pop growth) compared to the void dwellers, they're not struggling against unemployement and overcrowding in the first 20-30 years on their 3 habitats. Once they get terraforming or habitats themselves, I'd rate the ocean paradise as better, since they can start to explosively expand.

And, because fanatic xenophile, AI relations aren't that hard as you'll have 4 envoys to chuck at them.

[Sepherix]

Angler grants consumer goods without ruining your forge world's building slots or swapping jobs to artisans. Which can be stupidly strong.
If you manage to find another world (which isn't hard because you don't lose your habitability that much) as ocean paradise, you can move your capital and turn it into a forge world. Giving you.. yeah. A saucy alloy production.And again, you don't lose your habitability that much and you can terraform. Then with ascension perk make your big world even bigger.
The bigger the world, the more pops can be used in production and basic necessities like amneties or ruler (that will leave unemployment for a while if you close up those jobs)

[Tiasmoon]

Half Phased님이 먼저 게시:

Tiasmoon님이 먼저 게시:

How much of that is down to the other parts of the build? I'm guessing most of it.

Megacorp + Fanatic Xenophile + Egalitarian (swap with pacifist if you want more trade value, I went for something where I could declare war if I needed to expand) + Anglers Civic + Free Traders Civic + Thrifty trait + Ocean Paradise

It beat my previous maximised trade value empire, which was basically the same except it swapped out Ocean Paradise for void dwellers, by about 20 trade value at game start.

Comparison between the two builds is that the Angler/Ocean Paradise can be a bit more starved for extra habitable surfaces (and pop growth) compared to the void dwellers, they're not struggling against unemployement and overcrowding in the first 20-30 years on their 3 habitats. Once they get terraforming or habitats themselves, I'd rate the ocean paradise as better, since they can start to explosively expand.

And, because fanatic xenophile, AI relations aren't that hard as you'll have 4 envoys to chuck at them.

Yeah, thats just a trade value build. Nothing new. Trade Value builds are very strong currently. I dont know if Anglers really adds much value to it.

If you entered a Trade League, your Pearl Diver jobs would become useless.

[Tiasmoon]

Garatgh Deloi님이 먼저 게시:

Tiasmoon님이 먼저 게시:

-Aquatic being 1 point, 1 pick despite its good benefits requiring an origin, ascension perk or specific civics.

I would make the argument that the trait is good on its own, all it really "requires" is using a ocean world as the home system.

It's +20% Habitability (so 100% Habitability right away in the early game), -10% housing usage and +10% worker output on at least 3 worlds assuming you don't use a origin that replaces guaranteed habitable worlds and use the default guaranteed habitable world settings. For 1 trait point that isn't bad at all and i imagine it would be a auto pick for most empire types if it was free (not all, but many).

That said, it off course come with the downside of not liking "dry and frozen" worlds having worse habitability on them. Depending on RNG this can be a huge issue or a non issue.

I wouldnt consider it an auto pick, since the same can be said about Lithoids.

Lithoids downside are global and so are their upsides(which are also a lot more powerful), so easier to manage despite rng. And its a 0 trait pick/slot. A lot of the origins cant even use the Aquatic trait, so its a much more limited pick too.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Tiasmoon님이 먼저 게시:

I wouldnt consider it an auto pick, since the same can be said about Lithoids.

Lithoids downside are global and so are their upsides(which are also a lot more powerful), so easier to manage despite rng. And its a 0 trait pick/slot. A lot of the origins cant even use the Aquatic trait, so its a much more limited pick too.

Lithoids gives you reduced population growth, the amount of pops you have is directly translated to the output you have ingame.

Lithoids +habitability and the ability to ignore food is nice, but the trait also has worst downside of any trait in the game. That is what makes it not a automatic pick.

The aquatic trait's downside is a non issue in comparison.

[Tiasmoon]

The thing about the ''reduced pop growth'' is that lower habitability also gives that. On secondary planets Lithoids end up at 110% habitability, and thus lose most of that penalty. On tertiary planets they end up at 70% so lose all of it.

By the time reduced growth potential starts making a difference, you can easily already have other species to make up for that.

Its an easy automatic pick because it also gives the incredibly strong ability to start with +1 sensor range and access to crystals (or one of the other two strategics) at the cost of +2 points and 1 pick.