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BasiC 18 MAR 2020 a las 2:27 a. m.
Will we ever get an "anarchy" choice under authority?
Maybe something like anarcho-capitalism.
I mean this is a sci-fi game, why not introduce some of the newer political ideas?
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Mostrando 31-45 de 47 comentarios
Midnight 19 MAR 2020 a las 5:20 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por NoDMoD:
Wikipedia LOL, as if wikipedia actually means anything.

It means more than any cerebral discussion on Steam, that's for sure. I *generally* consider it a bonus if someone links to anything on Steam, but in saying that I have a tendency to handwave blogs and journals abso-fecking-lutely everywhere. A well-placed meme ranks higher than those in credibility. Wiki is perfectly fine.
Finwe Uwetil 19 MAR 2020 a las 5:38 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por NoDMoD:
Publicado originalmente por Laffey Drinks:

Wiki is perfectly viable. See, they have these things called "citations" as well as "references" so that you can see where the wiki is pulling its information.

Well, Anarchy is a concepts which is understood in many different ways. It's a very controversial subject. I love philosophy and I am an anarchist by heart. My understanding of anarchy is however, wildly different from the mainstream view (such as your so called "citations") .

It's not that simple.

But that doesn't make a ruler or mean you are right.
EleventhStar 19 MAR 2020 a las 5:49 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por NoDMoD:
Wikipedia LOL, as if wikipedia actually means anything.

but everytime i mention my PhD people don't believe me either! what am i to do?
Kleiner's final Form 19 MAR 2020 a las 5:52 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por EleventhStar:
Publicado originalmente por NoDMoD:
Wikipedia LOL, as if wikipedia actually means anything.

but everytime i mention my PhD people don't believe me either! what am i to do?
Make a wikipedia page of yourself saying you have a PhD.
Midnight 19 MAR 2020 a las 5:59 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Kleiner's final Form:
Make a wikipedia page of yourself saying you have a PhD.

That moment when you're forced to satisfy Wiki's notability criterion by referencing the achievements as listed on your Wiki page.

The Worm loves us for our cyclical nature.
BasiC 19 MAR 2020 a las 7:31 a. m. 
For those looking for some sort of authority figure id point to people like david friedman or bryan caplan.
Both respected economics professors and anarcho-capitalists.
Aanarcho capitalsim is the only system that relies on economic theory as oppose to the socialist, or left variants whos ideas about how the economy works might as well be voodoo magic.
For those doubting anarcho capitalism is truly "anarchic", that simply depends on the source you are using because some lefty anarchists like saying thats the case for their own reasons.
For those who want to get an intro about how a private court system or law enforcment can work without some sort of higher authority like a federal government i would suggest watching this video:
https://youtu.be/jTYkdEU_B4o

For those asking about game mechanics, it seems someone already pointed out that hearts of iron does allow you to play as anarchist Spain and has the specific systems for it.
What would be the specific systems in the case of stellaris that is obviously up to the devs to decide.
The "closest" thing that exists in stellaris right now is being a leader of a giant corporations.
Lets say that even if you are cynical about anarcho capitalism and think it would end up as one giant corporations or something, it would still be much more interesting to implement the idealized version of anarcho capitalism into the game or maybe some left anarchist variant like in hearts of iron.
Última edición por BasiC; 19 MAR 2020 a las 7:33 a. m.
EleventhStar 19 MAR 2020 a las 7:49 a. m. 
the only thing thats voodoo magic to me is seeing how this system is any different from e.g. communism: great on paper but impossible in reality.

i imagine it's voodoo magic to you too since youre avoiding answering it.
EleventhStar 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:13 a. m. 
actually watched your video and it doesn't adress anything.

the guy just assumes benevolence. the entire basis for the argument is that "violence is expensive", which if often simply isn't. he even says at one point that right magement agencies would prioritize the welfare of their clients over profit, which is a joke in a unregulated capitalist society.

he also doesn't adress rights management agencies buying/merging/conquering others until a monopoly is formed, which would lead to mass indentured servitude/slavery + oligarchy.

has he ever read a book about the industrial revolution or feudalism? what made him think this was going to work out when he wrote this when WW2 was still a very recent event?
Última edición por EleventhStar; 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:15 a. m.
Azrael 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:19 a. m. 
Imho anarchy-capitalism, alongside anarchy in itself, is impossible or at the very least not long enduring in existence.

Regarding anarchy as a whole, the idea could only work on village scale somewhat reliably: All people regularly meeting each other in a grand council, voting on stuff and making decisions.

But "Anarchy" means no one has power. But such a direct democracy would enact either no decisions or decisions by majority vote, so the majority enacted power over the minority => Then it is no longer an anarchy, it is direct democracy then.

And if you try that concept on anything higher than that, that nationstate crumbles pretty fast in itself and especially against outside enemies.
Playing anarchists in HoI 4 might be somewhat funny and maybe you even win with it, but you're no anarchist. You're the player, a deity that controls by ghost hand, what the state does, a single entity, a single mind, not a council, against stupid AI's, not real humans.

There is a reason, The Anarchists in Spain lost in the Spanish Civil War.

And Anarcho-Capitalism, by definition of the Term "Anarchy" can't work either, because corporations are organized in an hierarchy.

Now some define the term "Anarchy" not by being an absence of government but by government by peoples councils (as portrayed in HoI 4 La Resistance), but wether Anarchism or Anarcho-Capitalism: That won't stand a chance against more organized forms of government.

I understand, that "Anarchism" as a concept seems interesting, because we are not accustomed with it, but it really can't work properly on a large scale, except you dissolve every government of the world, then you probably would have large scale anarchism aka. we would be back in the tribal stage.

It is interesting as an additional Origin backstory for Stellaris Civilizations and Ethic, but it would need to have some heavy debuffs and buffs in other areas (maybe Unity?), otherwise it would be unrealistically strong.
And in an anarchic society, could there be different pops as in rulers, specialists, workers? Imho not, since anarchy founds itself in equality.

So that would require an unchangeable social law for every species in your empire, where every caste would have equal political power, forcing you to look even more so after the needs of your people and slavery would be impossible to anarchists.

And decisions by council would either need time to enact them, so no instant policy switching on the fly or increased political cost or, if you wanna make anarchism truly special, this depends on something, e.g. the fulfillment of needs of your people and or maybe that the attempt to change a policy can fail.

Obviously there could be no leading figurehead, not even a single entity like with Hiveminds or machine empires, so there would be new art to be drawn (like in HoI 4), so a global council, that technically spoken is immortal, would be in place to represent and influence the civilization with traits and maybe we should even think about it, that the traits can be changed, however this "council" can't gather any experience as opposed to single leaders who could do that (since people die, new people get born, so the constitution of this council changes all the time, since experience is lost with old members dying).

You have to make it somehow special, otherwise in essence Anarchism as a form of "Ethic" aka. government form would be too much a copy of Gestalt Consciousness Empires.

I would be thrilled to try it out in Stellaris, but regarding RL, Anarchism can't work out for us humans in any productive way, atleast not in the way humanity is constituted today.

Maybe in some distant future, we got Wi-Fi brain implants and we would connect to a global council and vote in a wireless fashion on global matters.

But this system has inherent heavy flaws in comparison to representative democracies, so I doubt, that democracies would ever fade from the face of earth or from human society.

Besides, if this hypothetical anarchist global council wouldn't want to decide every single matter on the planet, it would have to organize smaller states with own councils, in essence then there would be a federal government, albeit an anarchist one, but that defeats the Idea of Anarchism, that there should be no federal government.
Última edición por Azrael; 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:25 a. m.
NoDMoD 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:20 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por EleventhStar:
Publicado originalmente por NoDMoD:
Wikipedia LOL, as if wikipedia actually means anything.

but everytime i mention my PhD people don't believe me either! what am i to do?

In all honety, having a PHD doesn't mean you are smart.
EleventhStar 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:31 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por NoDMoD:
In all honety, having a PHD doesn't mean you are smart.

well the truth is, i actually lived during the times were talking about in the place we were talking about. so i know a thing or two about a thing or two.

i was also in the service and my dad was in the war and let me tell you he can tell you a story you wouldn't believe. i lost an arm and a leg so i had to sell my medals to deal with my brothers alcohol drug habit. times we tough.

but i strung myself up by my bootstraps which i bought with food stamps and became a working girl to put myself through college.

so i think i do know what i am talking about. it is a matter of fact.
BasiC 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:42 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por EleventhStar:
actually watched your video and it doesn't adress anything.

the guy just assumes benevolence. the entire basis for the argument is that "violence is expensive", which if often simply isn't. he even says at one point that right magement agencies would prioritize the welfare of their clients over profit, which is a joke in a unregulated capitalist society.

he also doesn't adress rights management agencies buying/merging/conquering others until a monopoly is formed, which would lead to mass indentured servitude/slavery + oligarchy.

has he ever read a book about the industrial revolution or feudalism? what made him think this was going to work out when he wrote this when WW2 was still a very recent event?
Well thats a quick summery.
If you want in depth arguments for those you need to read the book(its free by the way).
I would address your points but its simply too much for this forum post and is absolutely offtopic.
Come look me up in the discord server and we can have a chat if you want.
I go by the same nick.
Última edición por BasiC; 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:43 a. m.
EleventhStar 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:49 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por BasiC:
Well thats a quick summery.
If you want in depth arguments for those you need to read the book(its free by the way).
I would address your points but its simply too much for this forum post and is absolutely offtopic.
Come look me up in the discord server and we can have a chat if you want.
I go by the same nick.

i don't want in depth arguments.

i want a very short explanation of how to avoid some of the worst possible outcomes that history shows happen in these types of situations. it should be trivial.

you know, any indication at all that reading this book wouldn't be a colossal waste of time.

if i were to hazard a guess it would be like: multiple rights management agencies hire an army to protect them from others. but at that point you are pretty much already back at states.
Grey 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:56 a. m. 
Lmao Starting to think Midnight was right about OP being a troll. Not recognizing that both the guys he cites argue for an ancap society with anarchic values. It's like saying the US is a representative democracy when in fact it's a constitutional republic with representative democratic values. There is nuance in that that the OP is missing. Should also point out that one of the cited guys is a supporter of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Ayn Rand of all people. Too funny. XD

Also OP, Megacorporation can fit into what ancap is but it should be pointed out that you can create Trade Leagues with the MC expac. That's why I and others have recommended it to you. Play as a trade league and roleplay if you want an ancap society so badly.

Publicado originalmente por EleventhStar:
the only thing thats voodoo magic to me is seeing how this system is any different from e.g. communism: great on paper but impossible in reality.

i imagine it's voodoo magic to you too since youre avoiding answering it.

Haha true. Funny that the ideologies that sprung up last century are failed ones; Communism(incompatible with human nature), Fascism(incompatible with western culture, possibly human nature as well), Anarchism(also incompatible with human nature).

The funniest bit in all of this is that video OP linked. There are so many fallacies and falsehoods in it I wouldn't even know where to start. Ancap does not work and for good reason. Corporations do not put restrictions on themselves or the market, nor do they willingly adhere to them. Then there is the idea that everybody is in the same boat so lets hold hands and be moral to each other is just so cute. But there's more and it's so bad. The video is just so, so bad. Eleventh if you need a good laugh seriously watch it.:tbpwink:

Edit; Oh you did watch it. Nevermind then. XD
Última edición por Grey; 19 MAR 2020 a las 9:23 a. m.
PDX_Moderator_2 19 MAR 2020 a las 8:57 a. m. 
Let's not go off-topic. Keep this game-related.
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Publicado el: 18 MAR 2020 a las 2:27 a. m.
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