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Schanez Jan 17, 2019 @ 8:53am
Tall Science Empire - Life Seeded ideas?
Hi there, fellow gamers.

I returned to the game after a longer break and am slowly getting to learn the changes that happened to it. It's almost like a new game alltogether. Which is quite exciting to say the least. So with that in mind, I started to dig in deep into my favourite "high technology small territory" gameplan ideas. And it lead me to here, to sample the opinions of other players in hopes of mutually beneficial insight and knowledge sharing.

I am pleased to note, that the Reasearch penalties are not applied based on an Administrative Capacity you have comapred to the cap. Not the raw amount of planets and systems. This changes the One Planet Strategy into Small Empire Strategy! Oh all the possibilities!

Here is what I am currently certain of picking up:

- Monarchy Government - because I dislike elections; haven't had a bad ruller so far, had a lot of bad ones elected, stealing my precious scientists away from research.
- Fanatic Materialist - robots, research speed, what else to say?
- Life Seeded - 25 Gaia world start? Yes please.
- Traits - Intelligent is set in stone, everything else keeps changing as I start every new game, to see how it affects the gameplay.


Here is what I am conflicted about:

- Third Ethics point - I am utterly torn here; Pacifist offers a bonus 10 Administrative Capacity, Xenophobe has that sweet +10% Pop Growth and -20% Starbase cost, Egalitarian gives the Faction Influence and Specialist (reasearchers included) output; I would lean towards Pacifist due to the bonus 5 systems you can controll, although am also considering Egalitarian as a strong second place, mostly due to the fact Admin Cap can be raised through tech later and the issues with waging war as a Pacifist.

- Second Civic choice - with Life Seeded I am prevented from picking Mechanist, which is a big let down; Technocracy seems decent, Efficient Bureaucracy is extremely tempting; I am unable to decide, which could potentially be the better one to start with, as I will pick the other later due to tech.

- Traits picks - like I wrote above, Intelligent is a given; for the last four, most recent build was Quick Learners, Talented, Sedentary and Weak; but I am testing out things with swapping Talented out for one of the other Natural Research boosters; I also had quite a lot of fun with Intelligent, Rapid Breeders, Traditional, Nonadaptive and Weak.


Here is what I would love some insight into:

I am still trying to grasp the mechanics of the new resource system and planet development. My biggest problem is the early Empire development plan. Usually when I start a game, I will quickly check the nearby hyperlane connections and attempt to snatch myself the choke points leading into my territory. But with the need to remain below the Administrative Capacity, it can cause quite the problem, here is mostly why...

Normal start - a cap of 30.
Pacifist adds 10.
Efficient Bureaucracy adds 20.
Initial Planet takes 13.

So in worse case scenario it leaves you with 17 to work with. Each system takes up 2. Each district takes up 1. Even if you build only 1 district early on, you are left with a maximum of 8 systems you can controll. 13 with Pacifist and 23 with both Pacifist and Efficient Bureaucracy. This can proove quite challanging. Either you give up on high resource income from your home planet till you can raise the numbers with technology, both in production and supported districts, or you can as well play wide and ignore the cap.

The biggest problem I am encountering is, that if I don't grab the choke points and base my defense around a fleet and a starbase in it, I will be unable to prevent expanding Empires from blasting me sky high with their higher economy capabilities. If I do, I am spreading myself thin with planet development, having to judge each district as a potential sector loss.

My plan is to rush through the Discovery Traditions as soon as possible and then push the Expansion for the tradition bonus for the Administrative Capacity.

And lastly... Ascencion Perks:

- Technological Ascendancy - is mostly my first, rushed perk I pick up; I don't remember the last time I did not take it in the first available slot.
- Voidborne - decent, but usually I won't have the tech required nor the Administrative Capacity to pick it up at the second slot; so I usually go for...
- Imperial Perogative - because those Districts and Sectors are still needed; a no brainer really.
- The Flesh is Weak - a third or fourth option, if I have the required technology; somehow I have been extremely unlucky the recent few games, with rolling the robot technology.
- World Shaper - because you have Gaia Habitability Trait; you want to make more Gaias; usually a third pick, if I have the technology.
- Megastructures/Synthetic Ascension - what is available really; if droid tech is not coming up, I will grab Megastructures; I could maybe focus on them more, giving up Imperial Perogative and World Shaper for the faster Science Nexus, but I have yet to reach the required technology by the time I unlock second Ascension Perk slot.

I am curious what people think. Would it be better to stall the development for the sake of more developed planet? Would it be better to Rush Imperial Perogative over Voidborne? You cannot build Habitats, if you don't have the capacity for them. I believe the real choice is between Terraforming planets into Gaia worlds or building Habitats instead. The former requires more resources, but I believe has a higher return in the longer run. Although it would stall the Science Nexus, so it is hard to judge. Can someone who has played Tall offer their experiences and insight?
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Showing 1-11 of 11 comments
Garslock Jan 17, 2019 @ 9:09am 
In general yeah play how you want you’ll have fun.

However if your going tall then life seeded along with inward perfection is fantastic, you won’t be friends with anyone and you’ll keep to your self and defend all choke points, you can go over your admin cap the debuffs are not that bad tbh unless you go over it by 50-100, imperial prerogative is not that good in my opinion it just adds admin cap swap it for arcology project and get your self a city world and funnel minerals into it for a massive supply of alloys, that option benefits your empire much more than imperial prerogative wide or tall imo.
Garslock Jan 17, 2019 @ 9:10am 
I usually hold off picking an ascension perk and save it for when I can chose what I prefer if none are available.
Na Jan 17, 2019 @ 9:17am 
Just drop tech cost to 0.25x
Illyrien Jan 17, 2019 @ 9:20am 
Do keep in mind that Egalitarian boost specialist production, and that researchers are specialists, so you can get a nice boost in science production there. Since other specialists production is also boosted, you need less of those and can afford more scientists... So I think, though cant say fore sure, that egalitarian is able to produce more science that materialists.
Iskander Jan 17, 2019 @ 9:35am 
First off: Your admin capacity grows from systems owned, planets owned and districts owned. So you WILL go over your admin cap eventually. Even as a tall empire. You will just try to remain as low as possible.

Having said that, on to your many questions:

Third Ethics:
* I would not go for Pacifist. The stability is nice, the admin is nice, but just that: nice. Not great or wonderful. the Liberation wars would actually be good for your play style: You don't conquer, you liberate new vassals while you keep your own empire small.

* Xenophobe is indeed great for the pop growth and it allows slavery and purging, more on that later.

* Egalitarian could also work, but it really depends on what you want to do: enslave others and let your main pop be the researchers/rulers, or create a multi-ethnic equality state? The 5% specialist bonus is good, but you will see Xeno researchers that don't have the intelligent trait as your main species does.

Second Civic Choice:
* Don't take Technocracy. It is an amazing civic, true, but more for going wide, as it gives you a science director instead of an administrator per planet. Since you plan to stick to a small, tall empire... not that great.
* Efficient Bureaucracy is mediocre. As I said first and foremost: You will go over the admin cap eventually. But just focus on your science and the repeatable +admin tech.
* Mining Guilds is always useful. The +1 mineral translates to +25% mineral production empire wide. It applies to your robots, main pops, Xenos, slaves... It is wonderful!
* Consider Aristocratic Elite. At max planetary capital, it gives 2 nobles. It also adds one building that adds 1 more noble, for a grand total of +15 stability, or +9% pop output. That +9% is for everything: food, alloys, research, amenities, unity, everything!

Trait Picks:
Take what you like, really. Doesn't have a lot of effect, imho

Ascension Perks:

* Technological Ascendancy and Imperial Perogative are suboptimal. You will be far ahead in technology even without the perk. And you can spam +admin cap techs without needing to waste a perk.

* World Shaper is broken at the moment. Terraforming any planet results in a re-rolled districts and usually end up with a LOT fewer districts than before. It can also wipe out districts you already built.

* Arcology is what you want. It requires two other perk, so make this your third perk and you can thank me later.

* Mastery of Nature is a very nice perk now. It allows you a decision that adds +2 districts to your planets, very useful if you plan to stick to only a couple of planets.

* Go for Megastructures before Synth ascension. The Dyson Sphere and the Dark Matter Decompressor are godly.



Having said all this, consider the following to make your tall build extremely powerful:
1. Take Xenophobe
2. Take Aristocratic Elite
3. Get your hands on a lot of slaves, I'd say at least 200. Buy slaves on the market, and/or take the Nihilistic Acquisition as your first perk and steal the pops from your enemies.
4. Once you have at least 200 Xenos, pick one planet, build a lot of precincts on it, resettle all the Xenos there and set them to purge-> forced labor. They will generate well over 1,000 food and minerals for your empire. And they will decline at -15 pop growth per month. With 200 pops, that means it will take you over 111 years to wipe them all out.
5. Having so many pops on that planet allows you to upgrade your planetary capital to the max and build that noble building for +15 stability. It will also boost the forced labor output.

Your Xenos will provide you with all the minerals and food you will ever need, allowing your main pops and robots to focus on trade value, industrial goods and research.
Originally posted by Schanez:
I am pleased to note, that the Reasearch penalties are not applied based on an Administrative Capacity you have comapred to the cap. Not the raw amount of planets and systems. This changes the One Planet Strategy into Small Empire Strategy! Oh all the possibilities!
I've read this paragraph several times and concluded that there must be some typos in it, because it doesn't make sense as it is written.

The new way that empire size penalties work gives you a much larger penalty per planet (because you "pay" for the planet and all the districts on it), but the penalty starts small and grows as the planet grows, instead of being a flat penalty that starts at full. This definitely makes colonization of new worlds less painful, but in the long run those penalties will add up to a lot more than they would have in the past.

It might be tempting to consider this and try to play very tall by limiting the number of planets you colonize, but the limits of population growth and the much higher population "cap" of planets mean that this strategy comes with a significant drawback. Limiting the number of planets you have also limits your population growth rate, and since pops doing research or alloy production require a certain number of pops doing other tasks to support them, population growth is key to growing your science and your fleet.

Also, each planet has a certain maximum number of building slots that it can support, regardless of planet size and tied to the current population of the planet. Your science output is tied to science buildings, but also tied to your consumer goods which is itself tied to other buildings. (You could buy all of your consumer goods on the market to free up the need to spend building slots or population making them yourself, but I expect that you would find that you'd need to spend even more population making energy or trade value in order to be able to afford that - if it was even possible to afford it - and so the economy of it would still fail.) So having only one planet, or just a few planets, is going to limit your ability to unlock enough building slots to generage a strong science output by building a lot of research buildings and all the buildings needed to support them.

So while I an not prepared to say that your idea won't work, I suspect that it may not work as well as you'd like.

-------------

Some other notes:
- I would recommend Authoritarian for your third ethic point, except that robots do not play well with the Authoritarian faction right now. Egalitarian is not an option if you plan to use Imperial authority (which I assume is what you mean by monarchy). Xenophobe is probably a good choice, since you will need a lot of population to fill up that size 25 planet, but it can have diplomatic consequences.

- Technocracy and Efficient Bureaucracy are both nice, but Technocracy has a huge impact right out of the gate. Definitely take it first and pick up Efficient Bureaucracy later.

- Nonadaptive is a natural choice when going Life Seeded, since the penalty doesn't have any effect on your homeworld (always 100% habitability). The same goes for Sedentary. Weak will apply pressure toward the pacifist ethos, which is not so great if you aren't pacifist. Rapid Breeders is good because population is so important. I don't really favor Quick Learners or Talented myself, often opting for Slow Learners just because lower levels are no longer a barrier to successfully completing anomaly research. Traditional seems like a good choice, since your scientists will be generating unity as well (from Technocracy).

- I think Natural Engineers is probably even more important than Intelligent (not that I am suggesting dropping Intelligent). I have found that since 2.2 engineering research tends to fall behind, and this will help with that. This is key, because advancements in robotics are in the engineering tree, and advanced robotics is important for a materialist Life Seeded game. (The alternative is Xenophile/Egalitarian and using attracted pops to colonize instead of robots, but that's a different direction from what you seem to be doing.) Also, having Natural Engineers on your pops will increase materialist ethic attraction, which is a nice bonus effect.

- Grabbing and fortifying chokepoints is more important than staying under your admin cap. Note that once you have blocked off a region of space you don't have to claim every system in that blocked-off area, because the AI will never leapfrog systems even if they have open borders with you. So snake out and claim those chokepoints as efficiently as possible, and then backfill the rest of your space when you have the admin cap increases later that allow you to do it with minimal impact. (Tip: leave unclamed systems in clusters of two or more when you can, to avoid the cohesion penalty for an isolated system. If the path you need to claim will leave an orphan you can't avoid, then keep an eye on your cohesion and claim that orphan if you need to remove the penalty.)

- Discovery followed by Expansion is an excellent choice.

- I'm not a fan of World Shaper. You need to be colonizing new planets before you can get it. As a materialist non-xenophile your fastest way to get to that point is to research droids and use them to colonize. I suppose you could pick up World Shaper and then terraform your droid-colonized planets to Gaia at a later time, and that would be fine. I would not wait for World Shaper before I started colonizing new planets, though.

- Voidborne was pretty nice with Life Seeded previously, because your pops can live on the habitats just fine. Habitats are a lot different now, and I haven't played with them much. My guess is that they will be an important source of building slots in your empire, but I can't say for sure. I've only taken this once since 2.2 and was not impressed; I need to take it again and try to get the most out of it before I can say for sure whether it is a good choice.

- I agree that Technological Ascendancy and Imperial Prerogative are the best choices for your first two picks. That does put a lot of pressure on your third choice, though. Personally, I think I'd put off picking The Flesh is Weak in favor of other choices (Voidborne or Arcology Project, depending on circumstances. For example, don't take AP if you have or are going to get the First League homeworld, because you really don't need two Ecumenopoleis to win the game.)
Last edited by tempest.of.emptiness; Jan 17, 2019 @ 10:32am
Schanez Jan 17, 2019 @ 10:47am 
Hmm... I am not too keen on Inward Perfection, as I intend to use this Empire to eventually play with my friends and we tend to ally. So having those possibilities cut off is a big no no.

That being said, for a solo run it could proove to be quite powerful, especially if you go for the Fanatic Spiritualist and grab One Vision/Consecrated Worlds as first A. Perk. But that's off topic.

I am considering going with a Pacifist/Fanatic Materialist and grab the Life Seeded and Feudal Society Civics. Later on once I get the third civic slot, I can reform the Government into a Pacifist/Fanatic Egalitarian, or not... Will see. Pacifist would allow the stacking up of Vassals and Feudal Society would help maintaining them.

As for World Shaper vs Voidborne. Here is my opinion on the matter for now:

- World Shaper allows you to turn any planet into a Gaia, with all the bonuses a Gaia gives; On average you will be having a 16 sized Gaias, more if you cherry pick, which results in a best case scenario 20 Administrative Capacity cost for it. 2 for planet, 18 for districts. You have the versitality to focus the planet on whatever you wish, based on the natural bonuses it has, adding the specialisation bonuses to them as well.
- Voidborne gives you an 8 slot 100% habitability to all planet, that cannot be minned. It has unique Districts, so they are much easier to specialise for specific role, but require a backbone of Food and Mineral focused planet to support them, as they cannot produce those resources on their own. Best case scenario you are looking at a 20 Administrative Capacity cost for two Habitats totalling out with 16 Districts. That said they have the Reasearch Districts, so maybe potential for Reasearch output is much higher than on a traditional planet.

EDIT:
Regarding choke points, started a new game...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1627451779
Last edited by Schanez; Jan 17, 2019 @ 11:16am
Sabaithal Jan 17, 2019 @ 11:54am 
So much detail. I do have something to add. I did a one-planet challenge recently, and I will say if you are going tall, go for megastructures if you can. And if you are going for megastructures, you will want to turn your homeworld into an ecumenopolis at some point. As long as you have a matter decompressor (or plan to build one) the only resource you will be lacking is food, and you can buy that from the galactic market.

I've gotten past the rough part in my one-planet challenge, and all my resources are going positive by at least 200 points, and my alloy production is currently 800 per month, all thanks to the fact that I turned my homeworld into an Ecumenopolis.
Schanez Jan 18, 2019 @ 7:30am 
Okay, some things I learned in the recent gameplay...


Bonus Administrative Capacity technology comes only after you have colonized a second planet. Which means, that untill you are able to acquire a second planet you are locked with 30 Admin Cap (40/50 with Pacifist; max 70 with Pacifist and Efficient Bureaucracy). That makes Imperial Perogative as a second Ascension Perk slightly more alluring.

The way it looks like now, you either have to wait for Droids tech, so that you can collonize with them, establishing yourself a decent raw resources colony. Or the alternative is, to stall till you get Habitats, sitting on top of what will probably be 5 systems in total. And pray to the machine gods of your fanatic materialist empire, that you get the Administrative Capacity technology in the next pull.

I am still looking into Habitats, to see how to properly use them. They seem like decent options for Alloys and Rare Resources production. I cannot think of a decent way, to make them into Research Stations, as there are no Habitat buildings available for them, so you are forced to use the very limited District ammount for those. I was looking forward to making a Habitat into a Thrall World, but the Decision requires at least 15 sized planet.

Fleet is a bit of an issue, not in the very early game, where each Empire is mostly chained with the same issues, but you usually have at least one tier higher components. But in the mid game it can be an issue, if you are unlucky with technologies, that increase Naval and Fleet Capacity. Best bet for defence still remains a massive Turtle with a chokepoint Starbase that is tweaked into buffing your fleet and nerfing the enemy.



This low starting Admin Cap makes the Pacifist or even Fanatic Pacifist a desired start, in my opinion. I think, starting with a Materialist Fanatic Pacifist and picking the Life Seeded and Technocracy Civics might be the right thing to do. Later on, once you start encountering all those filthy Xenos, that pose a threat to your enlightened monarchy, you can reform the Government into an Egalitarian/Xenophobe Fanatic Materiallist. Egalitarian would be better, as I think by that point having Xenophobe would be redundant. Due to how Ethic shifts work, it requires a two step shift, first to demote Pacifist from it's Fanatic Pedestal and promote Egalitarian, then a second time to hopefully remove Pacifist for the sake of Fanatic Materialist. It should be okay, if you prepare before hand, boosting support of Egalitarian Faction as well as Materialist one.


Priority would be to either find a decent Gaia nearby and then establish yourself a... Honestly priority would be to rush Robots and Droids and establish a new Colony on a decently sized world. You can then use the Droids to focus the planet on resources while you push your Capital into further Unity and Research. The additional colony unlocks the Administrative Capacity research and with the bonus 20 from Pacifist you can more easily secure nearby chokepoints and afford to have a second world without going over into the dark area of research speed penalties.


Afterwards once you have enough Admin Cap from technologies and Expansion Tradition, you can drop the Government Shift. Snatching Technological Ascendancy followed with either Voidborne, Flesh is Weak or maybe Mastery of Nature. Overall I feel like second, third and fourth Ascention Perks can be sorted out in three paths, based on what you wish to rush first. Either Voidborne > Master Builders > Galactic Wonders, or Mastery of Nature > World Shaper, or simply Flesh is Weak > Synthetic Evolution. I would propose to pick up Mastery of Nature either way somewhere in the process, as the Decision it provides is quite powerful for a Tall Empire. I believe, that if you have the required technology, rushing Megastructures is the way to go.



PS
A new thought occured to me, as I was browsing the Ascencion Perks, that is the synergy of Nihilistic Acquisition with Shared Destiny and Feudal Society. You would more or less settle the borders right after your choke points with a planet, where you would dump the kidnapped species and vassalize them. That creates a buffer zone for you from any baddie and you can force them to go into war with you, lending you some of their Fleet Power. Even more so, if you form a Federation with them. Because you will remain Superior to them in terms of power. You could just let them expand outwards, while using your fleet to assist.
Last edited by Schanez; Jan 18, 2019 @ 7:40am
You will find that the arcology perk is actually the better of the gaia vs voidborn debate.

City planets can produce their own unique districts that handle alloys and consumer goods. This allows you to instead use the spare building slots that would have been for that.. for science.

Do that with egalitarian and a materialist who has the Technocracy civic and you're great.

I don't know what you mean but Admin cap does effect science.. eventually.

However as always a wide strategy that is built up will always beat out a tall one on tech, over time. But in a given time frame a small confined city planet empire uses up less districts and therefor less admin cap, if you make good use of vassalizing and tributizing your opponents.
Last edited by Lady Crimson (RIP); Jan 18, 2019 @ 8:56am
Schanez Jan 21, 2019 @ 5:35am 
I only recently got the DLC required for Acrology, but it does look promising. Will have to test it out.

For now played some more and figured out, that for me, the easiest start is as such.

Ethics: Fanatic Materialist with Militarist/Authoritarian/Egalitarian (depending what I feel like).
Civics: Life Seeded and Efficient Bureaucracy

Ascension Perks: Technological Ascendancy > Voidborn > Master Builders > Galactic Wonders

Gameplay plan is to:
1. secure choke points to your sector of the galaxy;
2. scout out any potential planet for colonization later;
3. establish a couple systems that offer the best resources in your area;
4. research top priorities are: Planetary Unification followed with Adaptive Bureaucracy as well as Gene Clinic from Social; Physics should focus on Power Generators and Colony Development speed; Engineering has two priorities, those being Droids and Starfortress;
5. traditions are picked in order: full Discovery, full Expansion, full Prosperity;
6. once I have Droids and Starhold, Engineering focuses on the Rare Resources exploitation technologies, because about that time is, when they are becoming much more important;

The idea is, to have your main Gaia World as the Research planet, unless you find another planet nearby, that has a natural boost to research output. The colonized worlds will be the Mineral, Energy and Food backbone for your Habitats. Habitats will mostly be used for Rare Resources Materials as well as Alloy Smellter factories.

Defensively, you should be able to outtech everyone by a big margin. Usually when I am installing Tier 2 Plasma Throwers on my Cruisers, enemy is researching Destroyers and is rolling with Tier 2/3 Kinetics and Lasers. Be mindful what your Bastion Starbases equip as their Gun Module Weapons and adapt your Defence Platforms accordingly. Sometimes they will roll with a full set of Laser Weapons against a Shield heavy enemy, because AI finds those the best you have. And definitely have at least two Platforms dedicated to Point Defense systems as the station lacks those. The buffs and debuffs of the Bastions are quite potent as well. A response Fleet of Corvettes and Destroyers fitted out with Plasma Throwers becomes quite deadly with the Disruptor Field Generator and Communications Jammer.



On a side note, how do you develop your fleets? Do you stick to one type of a ship to perform one specific role, or will you have different types of them? I am still working out how to properly use the fleet to the best of their capabilities. For now I am using ships as follows:

Corvette: early with Point Defense and Lasers, later with Swarm Missiles and Plasma Throwers; idea is to overwhelm enemy Point Defence from close range, so that more missiles hit the target.

Destroyer: am torn here, I usually use them as just straight Point Defense with Plasma or a Gunship Front/Interceptor Back, or full Gunship with a set of Autocannons and Plasma; but I am not too sure, if it is the best way to go; they seem quite capable of dealing with Corvettes when equipped with S weapons, but other Destryoers and bigger ships... They just lack the punch here; it's much better to swarm a Battlecruiser with Corvettes I think;

Cruiser: mostly two designs; if I prepare to wage war at someone, I will prepare what I call my Siege Cruiser fleet, which consists of the Swarm Missile Corvettes and Artillery Cruiser with Torpedoes for System take over; but in case of fleet composition, I will go with a mostly M sized focused brawler;

Battleship: all around the place; if enemies are far behind in ship classes, I will usually go with the Hangar/Carrier/Broadside or Hangar/Hangar/Broadside for the Small and Medium Weapon slots superior Tracking and Fighter Squadrons, but only if I am deploying Swarm Corvettes at the same time; otherwise it's a full on Medium and Large heavy brawler;

Is there any "go to" base rule set for fleet development? Like Corvettes should be equiped with Shield stripping weapons mostly, or Cruisers being the Point Defense Platforms for the fleet? I am somewhat in the dark, in terms of how ships interact within a fleet.
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Date Posted: Jan 17, 2019 @ 8:53am
Posts: 11