Alette & Overwatch

[Agent]

I've found both TBS and TBS2 to be pretty well balanced in general with a lot of very interesting and synergistic skills. That said, Alette's Thread the Needle skill in TBS1 was about the weakest and very, very rarely useful. But I think Stoic went kinda overcompensating on her new skill in TBS2. Level 3 Overwatch is an "I win" button. Level up Alette as fast as possible to 10 and, boom, you become essentially untouchable because it does a minimum of 3 damage to every unit which moves into range... and there are easily obtainable "Knockback on STR 3 attack" items out there. So most enemies (not being ranged) can't get into attack you ever again.

I, uh, think this should probably be changed somehow so that you can't trigger knockback on Overwatch? Or something?

[Fringehunter7719]

You're certainly not wrong.

Overwatch is pretty devastating even without knockbacks, with them it's basically gamebreaking. Considering importing Bjorulf's Blessing from BS1 is something most people will have done, you're starting the game with this potential as well (and failing that there's an easily obtainable Gormr statue before the 2nd proper fight).

A number of changes might fix the overpowered combo:-
-Change the knockback on strength 3 items to knockback on strength 4 (I think there's already one of those, so it's unlikely to be a problem).
-Change the damage calculation for overwatch to damage at (str + 0/1/2) instead of str damage (+ 0/1/2).
-Make knockback not work on overwatch.

[Agent]

While any of those would work I prefer the second solution as the most elegant. I'm not sure why overwatch is STR DMG (+0/1/2) in the first place instead of STR(+0/1/2) DMG.

[Fringehunter7719]

I agree with that as well!

[Aleonymous]

Origineel geplaatst door Agent:

I'm not sure why overwatch is STR DMG (+0/1/2) in the first place instead of STR(+0/1/2) DMG.

Those are equivalent if your STR is higher than enemy ARM. However: if your STR is lower than enemy ARM, then:
-- "STR DMG (+2)" does more damage but has higher miss-chance.
-- "STR(+2) DMG" first increases hit-chance and then increase damage.

[Fringehunter7719]

Even that would probably be ok and solve the overwatch/knockback overpoweredness, except that abilities don't get deflected (barring axe throw and possibly that 20% miss debuff you can get inflicted with).

[Agent]

Aleonymous: I didn't mean I didn't understand the *effects) of doing it the way it is, I meant I don't understand the decision to do it that way. It makes more sense to do it by adding to strength rather than to damage and it solves all the potential problems with the way it currently exists.

[Aleonymous]

Oh, yes. Maybe the overused the "never miss" buff on all these abilities... I think Stoic decided that Alette was considerably under-appreciated in Saga1, so they decided to make a beast of her in Saga2 :)

[vtc]

And you can make overwatch more broken : if you add two varls with forge ahead and a +1 will per turn object you can prvent alette from ever taking a turn and watch as she slowly grind enemies to death all by herself.

[Aleonymous]

Origineel geplaatst door vtc:

And you can make overwatch more broken : if you add two varls with forge ahead and a +1 will per turn object you can prvent alette from ever taking a turn and watch as she slowly grind enemies to death all by herself.

Hehe, nice exploit :) You can perpetual-ize any buff that way, but Alette's Overwatch is indeed the most useful. I suppose Bolverk's Bear Rage (counter-attacks any incoming attack) is the next up.

[vtc]

You can also use Eirik with a +3 will per rest object. This way you can farm the fight at Ettingbekr againts the horsemen as long as the boss don't die, enemies keep respawing, you can get arbitrary large amount of renown. Using Aleo with a +1 will per turn object you can chain insult the boss while alette kills its minions. You can even use the horseborn to destroy their amor to fasten the farm thanks to hit and run. I got to 90 renown before I got too bored and choose to finish the fight.

It works with the final fight against the king too, its even easier as no archers keep respawning, just put Eirick with track in front of Alette so she will be safe from counter attacks and kill elite guards as they come.

[Agent]

You'd think this would be an obvious nerfing but I guess not. Maybe balance patching isn't a big priority.

[kazooki117]

The big issue is really just the combination of overwatch and how it interacts with kill/push. If they remove that combination then Overwatch will go from completely broken to merely powerful, as it won't skip enemy turns, which is where the real problem lies.

[Atma]

As I haven't had Stravhs' Band or any of the other 3 Knockback items in any of my recent runs (mostly playing Survival), she's not nearly as broken w/out one.

She still does great damage, but actually needs protection and setup to get her numbers.

I like the suggestion above that adds 1/2/3 to Str and not guaranteed 3 Str damage + normal Str damage on top of it.

I know that the other abilities work like this w/ their "never miss" buff (Guts is another offender here that guarantees 5 damage against any armored enemy), but they aren't so easily abused either.

It doesn't help matters that Rook got his 2nd ability neutered and replaced w/ a generic Rally, making Alette seem even MORE powerful compared to the game's other main protagonist.

[Aleonymous]

Origineel geplaatst door vtc:

. This way you can farm the fight at Ettingbekr againts the horsemen ... I got to 90 renown before I got too bored and choose to finish the fight.

This:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=694950982

[vtc]

That's the idea. You just use the exact same sequence of orders once setup has ended with no risk of failling. And with the same technique you can win any fight in the game while taking barely any damage. It's pretty much an auto-win algorithm.