[Spoilers] Sundr quandries.

[The Silver Santana]

The game gives you two or three, depending on how you count them, opportunities to "kill" a Sundr. First, Bellower *must* die to progress the plot. However at the end of 2, if you lose the mission, he is brought back-that's the only consequence to losing that battle, Ivar does not have the body post collapse.

Second, Bolverk has the opportunity to "kill" Eyeless-I'm not sure if all Sundr are Bellower style immortal, or if anyone actually knows the answer to that question. Raze, the only backstory example, is a bad one; her son had just died and it's implied that Bellower, at least, can die if he *beleives* he can die. Raze might have no only beleived it, but *wanted* to die, a-la Rook near the start of the game if his daughter died, so it's not a terribly informative situation.

Regardless of if Eyeless can die, sorrow is expressed at her death by the (possessed) Bolverk.

This, plus Bellower getting characterization, suggest that the Sundr might not be bad guys and that killing them might *not* be neccesary. Ignore, for now, questions on if Eyeless is immortal and if killing her meant anything. The question is if killing them will make things better or worse.

However in every case, the tactically victorious gameplay decision is the one that *does* "kill" them. Good gameplay wins the final battle and good gameplay kills Eyeless. Being good at the game favors their deaths.

So are the Sundr antagonists? Is the "correct" decision to kill them? Is winning those fights good or bad in the grand scheme?

For my two cents, with the final fight, regardless of if Bellower should be awake or not, he shoulden't wake up *like that* with the Serpent standing over him. That's obviously bad for the future of our protagonists. Anything else, regardless Eyeless or the others, depends on the specifics. Story wise, it either makes sense for Bolverk to have one last decision of his own free will before he is subsumed entirely, or for the possession to kick in at that moment, but even so it's hard to tell if Eyeless should die or not.

[Aleonymous]

Good points.

Raze is described as an enemy that destroys fortifications, which is not (so) bad in itself. In any case, Iver killing her (taking into account the situation) results in his great grief and self-exile.

Bellower's attitude (his enmity towards Eyvind and, secondarily, Iver) kinda seals his fate, as far as "good gameplay" is concerned. Iver loses an arm to that guy, and welcomes the opportunity to fight him again (in Ch7) and again in Ch15, when he possesses Bolverk. All this bellowing does him no good, and maybe the Dredge race are is better off without him.

Eyeless is a different case. We actually have zero background character information on her: She emerges from that deep cavern, attacks, collapses the caves, follows the Raves, attacks 'em again at Old Ford, potentially dies. Not sure what her survival will mean for Saga3, but I assume she's not a "key Sundr", in the way Bello is. I wish we had more info on her (or is it him?).

[Aged Swine]

I believe someone (Zefr?) says something like "Dredge have no natural end to their lives, but they all, including Sundr, can be killed. All but the immortal Bellower". Of course, she might still be wrong, but otherwise it sounds that if we kill Eyeless, she's really dead. Bellower's sadness at the event also seems to confirm this - why would he be so sad if he knew she can't really die?

And Bellower himself can't die no matter what he believes, he just "acts" as dead as long as he believes that he should (and the arrow keeps him believing). Although it's a bit strange that his mind if still free to possess Bolverk (or Alette/Rook - if you haven't noticed, he does try that just before the caravan splits). After all, his mind is exactly what the arrow affects. I guess, it wasn't strong enough...

As for the right/wrong aspect. I am practically convinced that at this point, dredge are the victims. Possessed Bolverk's words about valka schemes and betrayal hint that there was some agreement between valka and the dredge, and it was probably the thing that ended the previous great wars. It might also be the main reason why whatever Juno was trying to do originally was strictly forbidden and lead to her being executed.

So now, dredge not just run from the Darkness - they really think that the valka broke that old promise and betrayed them, perhaps even consciously tried to destroy their whole race. So, while running to survive, they are also getting revenge on valka and the whole human/varl races (they probably don't think much about distinguishing them) - that's why they kill and destroy indiscriminately instead of just gathering supplies and moving in / on. Of course, if they eventually learn that it was not a collective betrayal, but a result of actions of two specific renegades, this might change their attitude. And, perhaps, even help forging an alliance of convenience.

From that standpoint, it really sounds like there might be some value in letting Eyeless live. Any act of "mercy" (if it can be called that) might bring the two sides a little bit closer to stopping the war and uniting against the common threat. Especially when it is done by Bolverk, who "sees both sides" and thus qualifies as the "perfect negotiator" (if we ignore his ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ attitude, of course).

[Uvahash]

The Dredge arnt even that Evil if you consider their lore. Way back before the first dredge was created Humans and Varl were constantly at war and this annoyed the gods. As a solution to their problem the gods created the Dredge as an enemy that was so powerful that it required both Humans and Varl to work together or be destroyed. So taking that into account the Dredge are really just fufilling their god given perpose by attacking humans and Varl. Ofcource that isnt the reason for their southern march this time around but it is still their sole perpose.

Its my belief that killing Eyeless is actually the worse choice. I think if we let her live she may come around and help us in BS3 but if we kill her we will have to fight her again in BS3. The reason for this ties into another theory I have but the gist of it is that the darkness is really the underworld/afterlife trying to take Juno back.

[Aleonymous]

I think how Bolverk treats Eyeless also relates to whether he wins the last battle or not. For example, if Bolverk wins there will be some "triangle" between him, Bellower & Eyeless.

Originally posted by Uvahash:

...the darkness is really the underworld/afterlife trying to take Juno back.

Ah! A nice one :)

[Darth Hernia]

I think the player may end up with an ending decisions akin to siding with either the Varl or the Dredge. You must sacrifice one of the races to ensure humans' survival. Which will you choose?

While the Varl have always been our friends, the Dredge are obviously better allies. They're stronger. And the Varl are a dying race anyway.

Unless you play as Rook then you don't have a choice because I ship Rook <3 Iver. Hardcore.

[Aleonymous]

Originally posted by Darth Hernia:

I think the player may end up with an ending decisions akin to siding with either the Varl or the Dredge. You must sacrifice one of the races to ensure humans' survival. Which will you choose?

A hard one! I hope it doesn't come to that... Why can't we all live happily ever after?

[Aged Swine]

Originally posted by Aleonymous:

Why can't we all live happily ever after?

Well... because that would involve resurrecting the one who died at the end of TBS1 (for starters), and from Juno / Eyvind story we already know where that would take us. :D

[Darth Hernia]

As long as Rook and Iver live together happily after I'm happy.

[Aleonymous]

I'd love for a super goofy ending to happen, a-la Monty Pythons or HHGTTG: In the end, it is revealed all we saw was a surreal dream of Eyvind Earle (the real person), after eating some bad mushrooms

[Aged Swine]

No way! "And it was all a dream" is one of the worst kinds of endings in existence :-P

[Aleonymous]

Hahaha, true anticlimax, indeed!

[Darth Hernia]

Originally posted by Aleonymous:

I'd love for a super goofy ending to happen, a-la Monty Pythons or HHGTTG: In the end, it is revealed all we saw was a surreal dream of Eyvind Earle (the real person), after eating some bad mushrooms

But do Rook and Iver end up together? That's all I care about XD