Wrecks in "Tombs of the Ancients"

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

So, being unerground apparently kills a ship that's meant for extreme conditions of space.

I know "this is just a game, I should proably just relax", but with so much effort put into lore it bugs me.

If you suddenly hyperspace underground, what would your first idea be? "I have big guns, I wonder if I can blast myself out of here", next, even if you don't - those things have generators that could last several eternities, wouldn't they just make a giant underground city and connect to each other usung tunnels?

An entire armada of ships that size, that's gotta be bigger than Khar- Toba. They could've lived on the planet same as Karakians.

I didn't know that putting giant space warships underground kills them and their crew instantly.

[[Dolt] Sastrei]

Who says they all died?

Also, firing those guns point blank into solid rock would probably take a large hole out of the front of the ship in the process. And it's possible that they had no idea how far down they were, meaning they might have just ended up dropping more rock onto themselves.

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by Dolt Sastrei:

Who says they all died?

Also, firing those guns point blank into solid rock would probably take a large hole out of the front of the ship in the process. And it's possible that they had no idea how far down they were, meaning they might have just ended up dropping more rock onto themselves.

Let's assume they don't have beam weapons to melt the rock, let's instead take the worst case scenario - explosive shells with high blast radius making them unable to "blast their way out". What would you do?

I mean, the life support system would function just as well as in space (i.e. for years), and then eventually you'd try to get out, no matter how far deep down you think you are. Sometimes in life you must try - no matter the odds. And them, being a military ship with high discipline and morale among the crew, I'd think they must have at least tried to dig a tunnel. Point being - the ships wouldn't look as pristine as they are dug up in the game, also they would have settlements around them.

[Caedo]

I'd like to think that when they reappeared in the ground, they would of recieved some violent shock that reverberated through the ship and injured / killed everyone, possibly even disabled the life support too. Not to mention they would run out of food eventually.

Its very possible being in the ground, their communications, their sensors and every other bit of equipment would not function, the ships are designed for space not underground, they would be unable to move, communicate, scan or do anything really.
They would of ran out of oxygen, food and died within months / a year, not nearly enough time to dig out.

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by Caedo #:

I'd like to think that when they reappeared in the ground, they would of recieved some violent shock that reverberated through the ship and injured / killed everyone, possibly even disabled the life support too. Not to mention they would run out of food eventually.

Its very possible being in the ground, their communications, their sensors and every other bit of equipment would not function, the ships are designed for space not underground, they would be unable to move, communicate, scan or do anything really.
They would of ran out of oxygen, food and died within months / a year, not nearly enough time to dig out.

I think three months time is quite enough to dig anything out. Any shock from materialisation is not a viable reason for this to happen. Imagine the shock of open space. For starters - you can't survive there, but you can pretty easily cover yourself with dirt and live for about 20 minutes breathing from the airpockets in the ground.

But, let's assume it was solid rock. You materialise and displace the exact contour of the ship in the ground. immediately the ground begins to shift since the structural intergrity of sediment above is compromised, same will happen in the rocks even if they are really solid - there will be cracks which you could take advantage of. Let's assume that on the ship you have a bit more than just a couple of spoons, a drill maybe and an explosive device (take one from the emergency escape pods - they are blasted away from the ship with small explosives, let's say). You have yourself an improvised explosive device. Drill a hole - blow up the device, enjoy your newly made cave. Bring out the supplies and establish some lighting. Even on Kharak there must be some sort of water (otherwise how did the Kharakians survive), but even if there isn't you could create some with condensation. Next, use your hydrophonics team to set up a garden. Plants are used even in space stations to generate some oxygen and recycle the CO2. It wouldn't be far fetched to say that ships meant for deep space operation would have some sort of hydrophonics deck to grow food and remove some of the air processing strain from the life-support system.

Use the engine exhaust to melt the rock behind the ship, create a cavern, then using minute course adjustments you could easily wiggle your way out of the starting position (lose a turret or two, due to them being stuck in their own "pockets").

Finally, it's not like they materialised in the middle of a planet. If they did - they'd be swimming in magma or be in the middle of a solid metal core. In the second case, it would be difficult to do anything of the above due to the fact that there would be gravity distortions and the molten metal could solidify before youer engines could make a big enough opening for you to get out. In the first case - you could just "swim up" and drill a hole through the crust. The extreme conditions of magma are nothing compared to the hot extremities of space, especially when one is close to a star for example.

[Caedo]

Its a shame the Taiidani didnt have you onboard, some of them might have survived lol.
There is no indication that any Taiidani survived being hyperspaced into the ground, you have to think logically about this, the crew, soldiers and engineers onboard these ships were military; highly trained, dedicated and had much more advanced equipement then we currently possess.
IF there was a possibility of them escaping, i am sure they would have, so clearly something happen to the crew or something prevented them from escaping, otherwise there would be as you said earlier, evidence that they escaped and established a town / village / camp or something where they could make a new life for themselves.
I dont think they would have the equipment or technology to escape that kind of situaiton, their ships werent landing craft, they were battle ships designed for space warfare, you dont waste room with drills and other what if scenario equipment.
I believe they all died.

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by Caedo #:

Its a shame the Taiidani didnt have you onboard, some of them might have survived lol.
There is no indication that any Taiidani survived being hyperspaced into the ground, you have to think logically about this, the crew, soldiers and engineers onboard these ships were military; highly trained, dedicated and had much more advanced equipement then we currently possess.
IF there was a possibility of them escaping, i am sure they would have, so clearly something happen to the crew or something prevented them from escaping, otherwise there would be as you said earlier, evidence that they escaped and established a town / village / camp or something where they could make a new life for themselves.
I dont think they would have the equipment or technology to escape that kind of situaiton, their ships werent landing craft, they were battle ships designed for space warfare, you dont waste room with drills and other what if scenario equipment.
I believe they all died.

Thanks, . I believe to have Khar-Toba and to have these (non-Taiidani, by the way) ships materialise in the gound is a very lazy way to deliver lore on the part of the screenwriter. There are things in the universe which should be constant. Like 2x2 is 4 no matter where you are, in London or in Moscow. So, if Khar-Toba survived a crashlanding and it was a prison ship made for space, then so should have alien battleships. I don't think you are looking at it from the right perspective like "if they were good, they would have survived". I think you should look at it from the point of view that's more like "someone wrote this to explain the tenchology of Gaalsien, yet they've made a cliche which fails to deliver the needed psychological impact and awe, due to the inability of suspension of disbelief of the player as the ships are unearthed almost in pristine condition".

Also, what survives in space with enough armor for engagement will definately survive underground. If we got really hard sci-fi on this and completely remove suspension of disbelief, then we must remember that spaceships have meteorite shield. It's meant to protect the hull from impacts of high-speed traveling space debris. Materialising in the ground and a rock falls on you and you die - that's extreme. Also, if some of the Kiith made it traversing the desert by themselves to reach the South pole with high middle ages technology, then I'd imagine that a full squad of frigates would have been alright with all the modren technology.

Also, you have to have a drill (if not, than at least some sort of firearms to stop the boarding action, grenades or something that explodes - even a combination of chemicals that power the engine or the reactor would do, if it creates the thrust to propell the ship then it must release energy, it's not like they've had slaves rowing in there). If the hull is compromised and the ship seals the bulkheads, if there are parts of the hull which are bent or deformed that obstruct your access to the ships's components due to battle damage - you need to have a saw at the very least. It's like being on a Galleon without a good hatchet - how are you going to cut the sails, ropes and repair the hull, especially in the midst of battle when you have to do it quickly? If we follow this logic into the future, than you must have a means to cut the hull of the ship from the inside, if say, a compartment gets shut off from the rest of the ship and the people inside of it have to be rescued from the outside in case the rescue operation cannot be performed due to distance from the carrier/dock/mothership/sweethomealabama. These things have to be thought through, you can't rely on a base of operations especially if your hyperspace malfunctions, and as we see here, these ships were meant for deep space operation as they've had hyperspace module installed which would have been economically unviable to fit to a base-dependent vessel.

Basically, if they materialised there, I fidn it hard to believe that they haven't fired at least a turret in desperation to get out of their prison, or overloaded the engines and reactor to cause a giant blast in a mass suicide, or they've all decided to play cards and drink whiskey till they dropped dead, or that they just suffered from mumbo-jumbo sci-fi aneurysm/heartattack simulatneously when they saw ground out of their window instead of open space.

[Arthur]

wow

[Furvel]

I would think that if the ships materialized underground, the open and air filled space inside the ships hull would be replaced with rock. That rock wouldn´t necessarily be displaced by the onboard air but instead the reverse would happen and the air get compressed into small pockets. The crew would be instantly buried and crushed upon reentry from jumpspace.

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by Furvel:

I would think that if the ships materialized underground, the open and air filled space inside the ships hull would be replaced with rock. That rock wouldn´t necessarily be displaced by the onboard air but instead the reverse would happen and the air get compressed into small pockets. The crew would be instantly buried and crushed upon reentry from jumpspace.

If that were true, then every time the ships hyperspace - the area inside of a ship would be replaced with the environment outside. That's not even feasible or practical. Then what's to say that empty space in bodies wouldn't be replaced with the nebula gas or something?

[Furvel]

Originally posted by Raz:

If that were true, then every time the ships hyperspace - the area inside of a ship would be replaced with the environment outside. That's not even feasible or practical. Then what's to say that empty space in bodies wouldn't be replaced with the nebula gas or something?

If we take a sci fi jumpspace displacement effect explanation as a given, it would still be possible that is fails if the outside environment stress it enough with too much matter that needs to be displaced.

They hyperspace in the empty void of space, not so much that gets replaced with outside environment for it to matter. The air inside the ship wouldn´t change by the occational atom that happens to be in the same spot. Hyperspacing inside a planets crust is obviously different.

A nebulaes gas has a very low density compared to earth athmosphere or the air imagined inside a ship for lifesupport. A google search gave a number of 1 atom per cubic centimeter, compared to air that has 3x10^19 per cubic centimeter. The planets crust has an even higher density than the air above it. So even a nebulaes gas could be seen as insignificant in comparison to air for the given jumpspace displacement effect.

Source linked: https://www.universetoday.com/61103/what-is-a-nebula/

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by Furvel:

Originally posted by Raz:

If that were true, then every time the ships hyperspace - the area inside of a ship would be replaced with the environment outside. That's not even feasible or practical. Then what's to say that empty space in bodies wouldn't be replaced with the nebula gas or something?

If we take a sci fi jumpspace displacement effect explanation as a given, it would still be possible that is fails if the outside environment stress it enough with too much matter that needs to be displaced.

They hyperspace in the empty void of space, not so much that gets replaced with outside environment for it to matter. The air inside the ship wouldn´t change by the occational atom that happens to be in the same spot. Hyperspacing inside a planets crust is obviously different.

A nebulaes gas has a very low density compared to earth athmosphere or the air imagined inside a ship for lifesupport. A google search gave a number of 1 atom per cubic centimeter, compared to air that has 3x10^19 per cubic centimeter. The planets crust has an even higher density than the air above it. So even a nebulaes gas could be seen as insignificant in comparison to air for the given jumpspace displacement effect.

Source linked: https://www.universetoday.com/61103/what-is-a-nebula/

The explanation of hyperspace your describe here is not sourced, and it differs greately depending on the sci-fi. If i remember the Homeworld manuals correctly - it isn't explained there in any great detail.

Even by your theory, when they open up the ship the compartments inside of it are not filled with rock, so your theory is not feasible.

And anyway, such explanation requires the ship to replace the overlapping materials in space with denser ones (i.e, whatever is unlucky enough to hyperspace into an asteroid gets its pillows in the officer's deck replaced with asteriod parts and humans are turned to statues along with anything softer than a rock). If that were true, minute asteroid floating in space would materialise inside the ships compartments, displacing crucial parts of the ship and causing malfunctions. Since the space is almost never empty, hyperspacing would almost always cause some sort of problems, until every atom of denser material eats the ship from the inside due to the amount of times it has hyperspaced. Eventually it'll just be slowly turning into a giant asteroid.

My explanation would be that hyperspace creates an infinitely thin layers between the transported matter and the space-time outside, then displaces that contour and delivers it to the certain area of space, where it is "reassembled" whilst displacing the conflicting material into hyperspace itself, or, more probably, just dispersing it into sub-atomic particles.

[Caedo]

Actually hyperspace is explained in Homeworld 1 and Homeworld Cataclysm source material, a little bit is also explained through cinematics in the games.
http://homeworld.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace
It also states that their is fail safes that disengage the hyperspace cores when they risk the ship crashing.
Obiously the far jumper the Hiigarans had on Kharak supercedes those safety protocols and makes the ship appear anywhere, if it can make a ship appear in solid ground, god knows what effect it has on the crew or anything biological for that matter.
Besides the point, the creators have a reason for the outcome of the Taiidan, so lets leave it be, no point dictating how you believe things should have gone, its up to the owners of the license, if they want pink fairys to have appeared in the buried ships and zap everyone to nothing, thats the homeworld universe lore and we have to accept it.

[Furvel]

I got curious and rewatched cutscenes from DoK and the ingame cutscene in mission 8 could give a notion on how the hyperspace entry played out. S´jet finds a ship at a dig site and says something along the lines like the ship appears to be fully intact and the surrounding cavity is perfectly smooth and doesn´t show any evidence of digging.

So from that I would think that the signature opening of homeworlds hyperspace portal/window displaced the earth and the ship, with it´s crew, survived the impact. Atleast the crew on that particular ship could have gotten out as it didn´t seem to be that deep underground.

Edit: Cutscene 24

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by Caedo #:

Actually hyperspace is explained in Homeworld 1 and Homeworld Cataclysm source material, a little bit is also explained through cinematics in the games.
http://homeworld.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace
It also states that their is fail safes that disengage the hyperspace cores when they risk the ship crashing.
Obiously the far jumper the Hiigarans had on Kharak supercedes those safety protocols and makes the ship appear anywhere, if it can make a ship appear in solid ground, god knows what effect it has on the crew or anything biological for that matter.
Besides the point, the creators have a reason for the outcome of the Taiidan, so lets leave it be, no point dictating how you believe things should have gone, its up to the owners of the license, if they want pink fairys to have appeared in the buried ships and zap everyone to nothing, thats the homeworld universe lore and we have to accept it.

Nope, sorry, not going to accept ♥♥♥♥. Especially if it isn't Sierra and is instead some lowly Gearbox trying to shoerhorn fecal matter into core lore.

I've had enough with ♥♥♥♥ trying to turn Thief and Deus Ex into some asian Resident Evil remake with tons of sex and flat characters. I've had enough with Ubisoft destroying Heroes and Silent Hunter, turning them into something football players would play at their recess.

I don't give a flying f*ck who owns the IP. If it's in the wrong "millenials" hands - it has to be bought back. Speaking of which, people are eager to fund some BS kickstarter watch that fits on your ass and tells you the horoscope for the next 500 years, but as soon as some jerkoffs buy a good license and butcher it all the moneythrowing hipsters suddenly cower and run. Not on my watch.

And for your so-called loyalty you get rewarded in kind. The game was abandoned and lore - butchered. You bought DLCs that were copies of information from HW1 manual for the price of a game. Now, you see it turn into a saturday-morning cartoon (don't give me that look, don't laugh and dismiss the fact that this was a well-developed space opera that had YES! doing the OST). If that's your cup of tea (although, it sure isn't by the yellowish hue and the charactersitic smell), then drink it and pretend it's champaigne. I ain't gonna turn to urinotheraphy because my wine fridge is empty.

And shame, shame on you. It is because of your conformist kind that the good things get destroyed and defiled in life. For shame!

Originally posted by Furvel:

I got curious and rewatched cutscenes from DoK and the ingame cutscene in mission 8 could give a notion on how the hyperspace entry played out. S´jet finds a ship at a dig site and says something along the lines like the ship appears to be fully intact and the surrounding cavity is perfectly smooth and doesn´t show any evidence of digging.

So from that I would think that the signature opening of homeworlds hyperspace portal/window displaced the earth and the ship, with it´s crew, survived the impact. Atleast the crew on that particular ship could have gotten out as it didn´t seem to be that deep underground.

Edit: Cutscene 24

Exactly my point.

[Caedo]

lol alright then, well when they develop the box of tissues dlc on steam, i will be the first to buy it for you.
Homeworld is owned by Gearbox now, like i said what ever they decide for the story now, thats how it will be, if you dont like it, you can cry and scream as much as you want, chuck a tantrum for all anyone cares, time for you to grow up and accept reality.