Equipment class restrictions.

[Yopul]

How do we feel about armor Equipment class restrictions?

Personally I would like armor to not be class restricted; helms, capes, chestpieces, and legs.

Removing the armor class restriction would allow for more build variety. Since the game already allows cross weapon stat scaling with the scaling stones. There are certain builds I would like to do, but cannot due to the restrictions.

I can see why someone would disagree with this. The restriction allows for the classes to keep a firm hold on their identity, but I don't think that should come at the cost of potential cross class armor fun.

[Yopul]

Originally posted by SM5T001:

IMHO, one of the interesting things about making the builds in games is comparing what can you possibly do with each character/class within their limitations, what are the difference between their possibilities and what are the possible different layouts for each of them considering all of that.

I can respect this, and I do it with other games.

Originally posted by SM5T001:

If you want to be able to ignore all the nuances and be able to just pile up all the best items and skills from different classes to one character, you are the type of player who DOESN'T like making thought out builds.

IMHO.

This is still a very early access game, I've already done everything there is to do. I've already made cross class stat builds. I'm not gonna care about limiting myself like that, when my current character save files can become unuseable, or obsolete. You are reading way too much into this.

And like I said in another post, I don't care about having BiS, or the best possible things I have available to me. You are making too many assumptions. I never said I wanted to pile up the best items and skills;

Originally posted by Yopul:

I would choose Fighter, and use Mystic armor. Enchant my sword and shield with Fluxstones, pop some skill scrolls for Spire, Cryo Needle, and Divine. I would still use a couple of the Fighter skills as well, like Shield Bash and Lethal Strike.

Please don't twist my words and intent. I only ever said I want to use Mystic armor with Fighter, that's it.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Yopul:

I have multiple lvl25 characters, I'm not lacking places to put the gear to use. This isn't about how much equipment I have that I can't use.

I already know I can transmog gear across classes. Yes I can use the stat scaling stones, obviously, I don't know why people keep bringing it up when I already did 2 times before.

Scaling stones don't change the base stats of gear, they only add on top of them. The transmog doesn't matter to me in this, as I would probably transmog the Mystic armor to look like fighter armor anyway.

Anyways, Intra gave me a way to accomplish my goal, so this discussion is concluded as far as I'm concerned.

Wait, you can transmogrify gear appearance?

I haven't found that option yet.

Unless it's connected to the mirror, which I have not used. I thought that was just for redesigning your character's appearance.

[Intra]

Originally posted by Smug Kot:

Also mystic skills hitting like a wet noodle vs weapon dps.

You have to know the techs to utilize Mystic's true DPS.

Katar Charge attack + casting spells. When that inevitably gets nerfed, casting faster spells with Coldgeist Bell also works. If you want to melee, you could also use faster spells with Ragespear.

Also Mystic is by far the strongest PVP class. DOTs are king, Fluxspear is the best stun, Mystics have the best mobility, and in a format where potions are forbidden, self-healing is broken. And they have two DoTs instead of one.

(Also Mystic is the only class that has reasonable magic defense... which makes them the only one good against magic damage)

[Killial]

I'll throw in my two cents.
Yes, I understand that class-specific gear puts emphasis on the base class stats.
However, we have scrolls that we can use to get skills that depend on different stats, like Divine.
And then we have the ability to change the type of stat that affects weapon damage.
And that's... actually a bit weird that we have gear that is class-specific.
So I tried playing Mind Fighter and heavily using Divine (since Rage also gives a bonus to magic power, and I didn't have any really strong skills in my arsenal for physical damage - only support ones) and I changed the damage type of the spear I use to Mind. It was a pretty fun build to play!

Considering that the small stat contributions we get from class gear don't make much of a difference anyway (even more so if we enchant the gear with the right stats), I don't see a strong logical reason to make separate gear for classes in combination with abilities that allow changing the weapon damage type and additional skills from scrolls. At least not at this stage of the game.
By this logic, also need to limit the skills from scrolls by class, weapon masteries, and remove the ability to change weapon damage type (because the Mystic still has no special skills to use katars or shields, or the Fighter has no special skills to use a bow, etc. - what's the point? But it is in the game) to keep builds/classes clean, preventing the creation of "poor quality" hybrids.

However, as I said, these bonuses from class gear aren't that significant to seriously pay attention to, at least for now. And if we like the look, we can just equip them as cosmetics.
So basically - no difference. One inconvenience is that we can't try them on to see the appearance without spending an illusion stone, or have a twink to wear.

[GrandMajora]

Figured out how to transmog my gear. I wasn't carrying Illusion Stones. I thought those were just for the mirror in Angela's chamber.

[David.Dragonheart]

Remember: ARMOR as stats can be hidden, or cosmetically transmogged (cosmetically, any armor you have can look like the Bunny suit if you WANT) without any stat effect, at the cost of Illusion Stones, and can be done at ANY time. EVEN IF it isnt your class armor, you can APPEAR to have it on for fashion purposes.

And Scaling Stones (Strength as red, Dexterity as Green, and Mind as blue) can modify a weapon's scaling stat, so if it was naturally Strength, BUT you want it to scale with Mind instead, you can do this via Vivian the Enchanter.

[Faust]

Originally posted by Yopul:

I think some people have a misunderstanding, I don't care about how "good" or "viable" my build is. I just want to have fun making builds, even if they make no sense.

If you're by any chance referring to my comment - the misunderstanding would lie in the fact that you thought the only concern here is what you want. Every change that the developer did not decide on himself is a change that has to entice the developer either by proving to be sufficiently engaging for a reasonable number of players and thus making the game more appealing to the audience he cares to attract and satisfy, or by proving to be sufficiently engaging for the developer himself. Redesigning the gear system just so you and maybe a handful more players can be worse at videogames with essentially nonexistent actual benefit to theorycrafting is not something I'd mark as conventionally beneficial for the game, which is why I offered my recommendations to wait until you can make a more compelling argument in light of a more robust build system.

[Smug Kot]

Originally posted by David.Dragonheart:

Remember: ARMOR as stats can be hidden, or cosmetically transmogged (cosmetically, any armor you have can look like the Bunny suit if you WANT) without any stat effect, at the cost of Illusion Stones, and can be done at ANY time. EVEN IF it isnt your class armor, you can APPEAR to have it on for fashion purposes.

And Scaling Stones (Strength as red, Dexterity as Green, and Mind as blue) can modify a weapon's scaling stat, so if it was naturally Strength, BUT you want it to scale with Mind instead, you can do this via Vivian the Enchanter.

Scaling stones need a little change, and is changing the main stat the weapon gives. Right now is about 10+ of stats you are losing and the gap is going to be bigger as better gear is added.

[Yopul]

Originally posted by Faust:

If you're by any chance referring to my comment - the misunderstanding would lie in the fact that you thought the only concern here is what you want.

I mean, what you said is completely wrong. Maybe you didn't read what I typed at the top?

Originally posted by Yopul:

How do we feel about armor Equipment class restrictions?

Personally I would like armor to not be class restricted; helms, capes, chestpieces, and legs.

I can see why someone would disagree with this. The restriction allows for the classes to keep a firm hold on their identity, but I don't think that should come at the cost of potential cross class armor fun.

"How do we feel" "I personally" "I can see why someone would disagree with this."
No. I'm not some robot that thinks in binary. Saying "you thought the only concern here is what you want" is a wild way to go about a discussion. It's funny to me how some people always get personal for no reason. Make a post without going for someone personally please. I'm not above lowering myself to someone else's level and making it personal, so I will.

Originally posted by Faust:

Every change that the developer did not decide on himself is a change that has to entice the developer either by proving to be sufficiently engaging for a reasonable number of players and thus making the game more appealing to the audience he cares to attract and satisfy, or by proving to be sufficiently engaging for the developer himself.

Obviously, yeah. I don't see the point in bringing this up when it's just a part of business. This isn't deep, it's basic business.

Originally posted by Faust:

Redesigning the gear system just so you and maybe a handful more players can be worse at videogames with essentially nonexistent actual benefit to theorycrafting is not something I'd mark as conventionally beneficial for the game, which is why I offered my recommendations to wait until you can make a more compelling argument in light of a more robust build system.

"can be worse at videogames with essentially nonexistent actual benefit to theorycrafting" My god, what's wrong with you?

"is not something I'd mark as conventionally beneficial for the game,"
C'mon, really? There are quite a few popular games that have non-class restricted gear. For games that allow mods: The mods that unrestrict class equipment are usually popular.

"which is why I offered my recommendations to wait until you can make a more compelling argument in light of a more robust build system."
What recommendations?

Originally posted by Faust:

I think it may be a wee bit too early to talk about class restricted armor given the very rudimentary state in which the attribute system currently is.

What you said is that my discussion doesn't hold as much weight/ground, because the attribute system isn't complex. What kind of sense does that make to you? How complex does it need to be? It's an indie game by one person, it doesn't need to be like PoE.

[Faust]

I mean, what you said is completely wrong. Maybe you didn't read what I typed at the top?

What I said only takes place in the scenario where you did refer to me. If you didn't - the post is null and void. If you did refer to me - nothing I said is wrong, because even if you start with a "What do we think", you still follow it up with "I don't care" and "I just want".

Obviously, yeah. I don't see the point in bringing this up when it's just a part of business. This isn't deep, it's basic business.

I've come to temper my expectations when it comes to assuming the educational background or common sense abilities of those I converse with. For good reasons, too.

> My god, what's wrong with you?

Not an argument.


> C'mon, really? There are quite a few popular games that have non-class restricted gear. For games that allow mods: The mods that unrestrict class equipment are usually popular.

The gear in those games is usually appropriately tuned to fit the build system of the game.

What you said is that my discussion doesn't hold as much weight/ground, because the attribute system isn't complex. What kind of sense does that make to you? How complex does it need to be? It's an indie game by one person, it doesn't need to be like PoE.

And this is why I say "obvious basic things" to people like you. The system needs to be complex enough to the point where choosing between different armors has some applicability.

[Intra]

Hot take: Weapon Masteries should not require spell book pages or skill points

Make them a quest to unlock instead

As a speedrunner, this would probably piss me off, but I think it's better for the game

[choesta]

there is currently no advantage to using class restricted gear on a disallowed class, therefore the only reason you would want to use restricted gear is if you're running a niche, sub-optimal build.

niche, sub-optimal builds are fun, IMHO. and even if you disagree, that does not invalidate the tastes of other players who aren't harming your experience in the slightest.

due to the restrictions, the only way to see how your character would look in said gear is to transmogrify, costing the player 1 illusion stone.

i personally don't see any way in which restricting gear class isn't more harmful to the average player experience than the alternative.

[SM5T001]

Originally posted by choesta:

due to the restrictions, the only way to see how your character would look in said gear is to transmogrify, costing the player 1 illusion stone.

Illusion stones cost 300, for high level character it's nothing, and they also drop for free. I tend to have several stashed in the bank just in case i'll need them.

Originally posted by choesta:

i personally don't see any way in which restricting gear class isn't more harmful to the average player experience than the alternative.

You are highly overestimating the intelligence of an average player and the level of attention average player will allocate to trying to understand his character's stats.
It's more than possible that seeing class gear's bonuses to stats will be the learning point of what stats their class needs for MANY players.

Even i found it confusing at first that "attack power" is actually a "str power" that only fighter needs, while bandit needs "dex power" and gets zero profit from "attack power".

[Astra]

"A lot of popular games do this."
I will be honest, it depends on the game and the era its from. Back in my day armor was class restricted. My first mmo being guild wars each class had their own sets of armor, you couldn't wear other classes armor much less acquire them.

The closest I can see this being a relevant comment to is games like Runescape, DND, Divinity, and maybe everquest. I know games like rift locked it to your starting class. IE Warriors could wear plate armor but no one else could. In DND your limited to proficiency, unless we go back to 3.5e where a mage would fail casting arcane spells with anything more than cloth armor. Divinity was a weird bag, you could wear heavy armor as a mage but you lost out on some useful stats. Then there is BG3, you could wear heavy armor on a sorcerer if you wanted, or even a warlock but you'd lose out on the "Advantage on charisma spells" robes you could get.

Like someone said, theres no advantage but hey whats the fun in playing the best in slot? Back in guild wars, I managed to beat the game with a pure melee Elementalist/Warrior build. God was that difficult though.

[choesta]

Originally posted by SM5T001:

You are highly overestimating the intelligence of an average player and the level of attention average player will allocate to trying to understand his character's stats.
It's more than possible that seeing what classes' gear gives bonuses to what stats will be the learning point of what stats their class needs for MANY players.

the burden of clarifying this mechanic really shouldn't be up to the item system in the first place, in fact half of said problem could easily be resolved by naming the strength based scaling stat (attack strength or whatever) to something that doesn't make the player immediately assume that it applies to all melee weapons

and if someone is really so dense as to ignore stats, then i doubt seeing these restricted items will be enough to suddenly make them take notice of them.