Warband numbers

[shadowlurker]

Hi all.

I think that the current fixed number of members in the warband is too high; it makes the map too crowded and turns too long. It can also detract from getting 'emotionally attached' to your guys (since they are so many). In tabletop Mordheim, for example, starting warbands usually have around 7 members (except Skaven and the like).

I would like to know what the devs and other players think about this and if there is more information about warband numbers once the game is finally released.

[RA0H]

Hey shadowlurker! We decided to go with the max amount of units for the EA in order to test a lot of elements. When starting the campaign and the management of your Warband, you'll be doing something very similar to the table top; meaning very few basic units at first and moving up from there :)

[Balgin Stondraeg]

Interestingly enough, the original tabletop game allowed for up to 15 members in every warband (with skaven even being allowed to field 20 because there were so many of the swarming little vermin).

Limiting it to 10 does seem slightly odd - especially when the skaven used to be quite squishy to compensate for their "strength in numbers" tactics. They were also the warband that excelled at skill and agility. Bulking them up to be on a fair footing with everyone else seems a bit odd.

In practice it was rare for a starting warband to field more than 8 models. even seeing an experienced group with more than 12 was unusual. But as a long term Mordheim veteran 10 just seems to low. It's not that I expect to see more. It's just that if that is the greatest number a player can aspire to then we should hopefully frequently see less.

I'd be interesting to know what balancing emchanics the skaven have to make up for their lack of numeric superiority. I saw them failing a lot of climb checks in the gameplay videos and they used to pass these almost automatically.

[Papa_Smurf]

You should of faced my Skaven warband on the TT version, it had 22 members (i added a half cook and the cook book for the xtra 2 members)

[Merry Clown]

I agree that the unviersal set limit for characters in a warband is too low. Like Balgin said Skaven were more fragile than other races and that was made up for by numbers. It would be going against the already established place in the warhammer universe to put them on an equal footing, in prowess, with other races.

Granted in Mordheim they had heroes who were pretty beastly but the low limit of ten, for all warbands, eliminates unique characteristics and differences in playstyles. I'm concerned that the unviersal limit will make units across warbands become similar in stats and in essence make them the same units just with different names.

[Shnoon]

in the TT,my starting witch hunter warband use to have 12 members(with 4 hounds included)...
Orks and skavens can reach 20...but it was part of the original balance in the game(even if i really think there was a lack of balance in the tt game)...

and i'm sure there'll be attachment to our units because i got some for all of my bloodbowl team players!! (15 for some gob team)!

[Midros]

I agree that I wish to see a change in the max number in warbands depending on the race. It adds variety and customisation compared to a max of 10 on all warbands. All with an impressive unit, 4 heroes and 5 henchman. If that were to continue effectively the warbands would all eventually be very similar with changes being only minor stat changes and cosmetic ones. +1 for different warband max numbers.

In terms of games taking too long this is largely affected by dodge/parry rates being ridiculously high currently so once something is done to fix that units should die quicker as they should do.

[ElArt0]

As already said 10 is lowering the numbers if compared to the TT. I personally wouldn't go lower. As of now, however, my concern is not only the fact that each warband has the same max size but also the similarities if we compare the units (every warband with one impressive unit and a caster, etc.), which leads to similar play styles across the (not so) different warbands.
Personally I'd rather have more profiled warbands that aren't the same and have different max numbers as in the TT (even +/- 2 would suffice, e.g. 12 for Skaven)

OR (as posted in the other forum)

Stick to 10 units for all, but make impressive units count as 2 units towards the max (so you might rather want to field 2 guys - right now I think, I would feel urged to include an impressive unit as a tenth unit).
Another thing on my wishlist would be the introduction of squishy units (giant rats, dogs, lesser demons, etc.). These I'd count as 0.5 units.
With both things (impressive = 2 units, squishy = 0.5) you could add the rule that
a) you cannot have more impressive/squishy units than normal units ("who's the boss")
b) you have to have double or more normal units than impressive/squishy (more restrictive)

and presto - with these small modifications you'd have more possibilities with all warbands to play them differently without the balance problems fo having different max warband sizes.
a) e.g. would make it possible to field 3 impressive units and 4 normal (= 10 units) to the 10 normal up to 6 squishy + 7 normal units.
b) with the more restrictive "who's the boss" rule you could field 2 impressive units + 6 normal units up to 4 squishy + 8 normal units (or y mixture of if, e.g. 1 impressive, 2 squishy + 8 normal, etc. etc.)

[Old Bear]

Hmmm... I like the idea of the impressive/squishy value changes, but I don't know if (for example) three impressive aren't much more effective then 6 normals. In the current test I have seen the rat ogre or the ogre merc put down two or three regulars as a group. I suspect with some tweaking that could be balanced (that is what dev is for after all).

[Ultra Instinct]

I like the number of units and, if anything, I would want it to be on a larger scale, with bigger maps and more units, rather than smaller, with more alley-like stages.

[rakshasa72]

Your not supposed to get too attatched to all your Warband members in Mordheim. Some (mostly the non-officers) are expendable. They will die or get injured. As long as you get the Wyrdstone, it don't matter.

[The Beard]

Hi all, I personally want the choice of being able to choose quantity or quality,I would like there to be some sort of upkeep system involving gold,where if you want to keep a member then you pay him at the end of the game after you have gotten your spoils ( after all mercenaries get paid! ) that way if you want to spend more of your money on weapons and equipment so you have a better quality warband then thats your choice, or you could spend your spoils on number of mercs therefore having and an increased upkeep so your going for quantity instead, thus leaving the overall management of the warband to the player.
It could even go more in depth so as your members gain more experience and become more powerfull they might demand more money as their sense of worth has increased which would leave you the option of keeping your favourites and letting some go if they are not cost effective.
This would leave the size of the warband reliant on the amount of gold you can bring in which would keep it's size in check and not get to big unless your playing high end games against other warbands of high value.

[Kes]

@The Beard: This is pretty close to how upkeep of units will be handled once the campaign launch. Don't you go think those guys sticks around for free! ;)

However, the Warband Max will still remain at 10 and the minimum at 4 (the minimum might change during Early Access).

[Midros]

Hi Kes,
Thanks for your reply. Just wondering how the team plans to get a nice contrast between war bands if the max number for all is going to be fixed at 10? Some war bands are about cheap units in mass while others are about low numbers of quality units. I'm concerned that this would mean all war bands will be similar with only minor changes if they are all restricted to 10 units especially once more warbands are added (assuming there will be more).

Cheers, Mid

[Lothir]

can I ask why/how you reached the maximum of 10 or is it an arbitrary number that you're running with?

[Kes]

The number 10 is to have a good balance similar to the tabletop without going high with 15 and 20. Adding more units means each Battle Rounds takes longer which becomes a problem quickly. Having less units would feel more like having a group of adventurers rather than a Warband so 10 feels good to us, especially with the mix of Heroes/Impressive/Henchman.

As for the warbands who relies on more units to be "balanced', well we simply beefed them up a little, especially the Skaven with the new Warpguard unit. It might not be a direct translation from the Tabletop, but we believe it fits well in our adaptation.

It's also important to keep in mind that we might add more than 1v1 eventually and this means more impact on performances so it has to be taken into balance as well.