Guns are horrifically inbalanced.

[The Hooch]

I just bought this game yesterday, and I've only just started playing in skirmish mode against a few teams. Seeing as how SoS seemed the most different out of the three factions and the Cult of the Posessed isn't out yet, I decided to play a few games with them, and what I am seeing so far is pretty horrific. I haven't played the original Mordheim, so I don't know if this is on purpose, but in almost every encounter I've been in, Temple of Sigmar, Merchant's Quarter, and now the Quay, I've been absolutely destroyed by guns. My heavy armor melee troops are hit just as hard by ranged units using muskets as they hit with melee.

I can see that this is a pretty cookiecutter spec, and both teams I've faced so far seemed to have an equal amount of guns as they did melee, for obvious reasons. I'm loving this game so far, but I think that melee definitely needs more support, or the maps need more revisions, because as it is the ranged units are vastly superior to their melee counterparts. It could also be that it's due to a few bugs. I've noticed walls and statues my units are using for cover can be shot through.

[ElArt0]

In the next update, shooting into melee will get a -25% modifier, so get your Sissies into combat ASAP! They made guns have approximately the damage of 2-handed weapons and bows/crossbows of 1-handed, while the reload costs are higher for guns. Also, at the moment you have all weapon options to choose from, but later on you'd have to pay for them, of course. I expect guns to be pretty expensive.

I still agree, however. If people choose a weapon type over another when they have free choice, something must be off balance. I'd give all guns a missfire debuff along the lines of the original TT optional rules (without a gun going BOOM! (destroyed) or KA-BOOM! (even more damage). So maybe about 10% chance of getting jammed, needing 1xreload to fix the jam and (only maybe) 2% chance of serious jam (weapon useless for the remaining battle) + make a skill that could half these chances + reduce the jam-repair costs to once 3SP.

[The Hooch]

I would love a misfire/jamming/explosion mechanic.

[ElArt0]

Sadly, it won't make it, see:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/276810/discussions/3/616199347848747721/

I would have loved that, too!

[The Hooch]

Well, it looks like you can count on guns being top dog in competitive for the time being, then!

[ElArt0]

Guess so - they have to make them deal a bit less damage IMHO or make them quite rare and expensive (AND/OR not useable, if it rains ;-)

[Vince]

Thanks for the feedback!
We are constantly balancing the game.
So keep an eye on this after the next content update :)

Vince

[Stymie Jackson]

Shields are essential to reducing ranged weapon damage so you can close range. This turns the base 70% chance into 50% by itself. Approaching with cover will give 10 to 20%...so now the base hit is 30-40% to be hit. That's pretty lousy.

When the next patch hits you will now be at 5 to 15% chance to be hit when in close combat, if you used a shield and cover properly. That will then allow you to switch to a damage loadout in close combat and still be hard to hit. Even without cover or shield, once you make it into close combat you're at a 45% chance to get hit once the patch hits.

Running down the middle of the street with a giant two-hander is of course going to get you pounded. You have to also send 1-2 guys around the flank in addition to using shield tanks to soak the overwatch.

Granted heroes can aimed shot to bring the odds back up, but they'd do more in close combat once they start getting 5 OP in the next patch (that's two dual-wield or 2-hander attacks in close combat).

Marksmen cannot use aimed shot with their current OP, so they will be very ineffective when firing into melee combat come the next patch if using blackpowder weapons.

Once you get someone using ranged weapons into close combat (you can move in one turn farther then they can shoot) they are doomed...they can't counter-attack and they will not be in a defensive stance (using their SP to reload).

Finally, in several scenarios ranged weapons can be a liability at the start of a match.

I find ranged to be somewhat over-rated by the forums currently (and I have only played as Sisters and Skaven in the last three weeks). As a suggestion, characters should always grant light cover just like terrain (-10%) and impressives heavy cover (-20%). This is so you can 'hide' your troops on the approach, exposing only the front ranks with the follow up troops being screened. This would be cummulative with shooting into close combat penalties, so if you don't get a clear shot you have little chance of shooting into melee combat.

[ElArt0]

You're right when it comes to the odds, but I think you're showing it in a rather gloomy light, since

- shields are great to deflect arrows, but I've never seen anyone playing with only 1H and shield since you loose to much damage output, so often you have other targets than shield-bearers to pick from
- unlike the TT, moving doesn't give you any minus to shoot. It is often easy to move to the right spot to find the right and vulnerable target and ignore the cover

(you can move in one turn farther then they can shoot)

That's why I always voted for ranged having (much, double, triple!) more range than ATM (and for ranged dealing more damage also, but add more modifiers (making long shots, while moving and enemy in cover for people with no skills almost impossible) PLUS: make Ballistic skill matter also when it comes to the to hit roll and not only adding damage... In the TT a long bow shoots 30 inches, but a human can only run 8, so the bowman can fire 1, 2, 3 with a bit of a fallback movement 4 times (if the enemy is as stupid as to run around in the open all the time, anyway ;-) But all of that is another story and another thread...

And: I wouldn't and didn't say ranged is OP or anyone here, just that gunpowder weapons are slightly OP compared to other ranged weapons...I think you smelled a fire where there was none...

[Stymie Jackson]

Originally posted by ElArt0:

I think you smelled a fire where there was none...

The title of the thread is 'Guns are HORRIFICALLY unbalanced' after all :)

I should have stressed I was also talking about what balance will probably be like once the patch hits...currently shooting into melee combat IS a bit stupid balance-wise. That stupidity will largely go away and really affect ranged heavy warbands.

I did forget we had talked about move and fire penalties (probably not applied to bows or pistols, but everything else)...perhaps making aimed shot take +1 Red and 1-2 Blue points, instead of just +1 red so you can't move much if at all, unless you totally forgo reload. That's another great suggestion.

And always take a few guys with 1-hander and shield/Damage loadout for the two sets, not everyone with ranged/melee sets. Warpguard, warrior henchmen, champion/black skaven hero, etc. Sisters should have 6-7 gals with shield in one loadout.

[ElArt0]

Yes, smells like gunpowder...
Good suggestions! (Especially for the aimed shot)
As for changes when the new update will kick in, we don't know if they also change ranged damage while introducing the -25% to hit into melee, which would be logical to me...

[ElArt0]

SJ, is that you? I already thought from the post that it was you and now I saw the picture...(why the change of name, you've already made yourself one in the MH forums - at least I thought your posts were great, although we don't always completely agree - though I think in spirit...)
I made a post about ranged attacks post next update in the feedback section:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/276810/discussions/3/616199347853543441/

[Stymie Jackson]

Originally posted by ElArt0:

SJ, is that you?

You may have caught me when I was using my Chivalry trolling name. Sir Archibald Ainus.

[ElArt0]

"Chivalry Trolling" - LOL

[Ungrosch]

There is no economy / band-managing at the moment!
Later, when the campaign-part is implemented and well balanced no one will have enough money to buy huge amounts of rifles.. I think (hope).
I played Mortheim (Mordheim) back in the days and buying a new rifle for your warband was a moment you had to save your gold quite a while for.

[ElArt0]

Originally posted by Ungrosch:

There is no economy / band-managing at the moment!
Later, when the campaign-part is implemented and well balanced no one will have enough money to buy huge amounts of rifles.. I think (hope).

Same hope here...