Two handed weapons and dual wielding, are they worth?

[Lord Chronos]

First of all I must say I play with merecenaries and I'm thinking specially in these options for henchmen. After trying some different combinations, I went back to shield and one hand weapon.

Even with my agility based youngblood I went from double handed weapon to single one handed weapon for the dodge bonus.

So, maybe I'm missing something but I don't know how these options are of any use for henchmen with 4 OP. Using double handed weapons or dual wielding I can attack just once and they have some drawbacks. While with a shield and a one handed weapon you can attack twice and get the parry bonus.

Maybe after getting some more OP they are again viable options, but, are they worth with 4 OP?

Even with my 7 OP youngblood I feel like it is better to have a single weapon, as I can attack 3 times instead of 2 and I have the dodge bonus, however I've been trying lately to use switch weapons to change to a double handed weapon, attack twice and switch again to have the bonus during enemy turn. That way is the only one I find that a double handed weapon is better.

So, am I missing something? Even more, is there any advantage of using dual weapons instead of two handed weapons (apart from the bonus from each weapon)?

When starting a warband, with 3 OP henchmen I find double handed weapons useful, but when you gain the 4th one, I always change to one handed weapon.

[Chiron]

I think Daggers + Hand Weapon should be a viable choice, lugging around 2 maces was an excercise in stupidity but many fighting styles utilised a dagger in the off hand.

[WillyTee]

Originally posted by WillyTee:

Two handers tend to do more damage on their first hit than two one-handers.

As such, it's really about offence points, if all you're looking for is to do max damage (not worried about defensive stats or initiative order at all)

3 OP - Two hander. You only get one swing, make the most of it. Your dodge and parry are poop at this stage anyways.
4 OP - One hander (and shield?). Two swings are better than one.
5 OP - Dual wielding - two full strength hits often beats a 100% and 80% hit combo form two hander (and you can throw in a sword for parry)
6 OP - One hander (three hits), or two-hander with strong blow (150%+80%), or dual-wield with skill attack (strong blow, vital strike, etc)
7 OP - One hander (+ shield?), or two swings with dual/two hander skill attack. Typically your other stats (strength/accuracy) will define what you need to do here.
8 OP - I'd take one hander here and just smush em in the face four times.

I would add I sometimes DO use a two hander with a 4 OP henchman, but typically this is when I've tailored them towards high accuracy and given them vital strike with a great sword.

[Born2Pwn]

I have played all 4 races a lot, and imho, the only ones that work well with 2h weapons is chaos (them big hits and crits) and skaven (2h fighting claws and weeping blades) everything else is best with either a shield or nothing in offhand for extra dodge.

[Lord Chronos]

Originally posted by WillyTee:

I would add I sometimes DO use a two hander with a 4 OP henchman, but typically this is when I've tailored them towards high accuracy and given them vital strike with a great sword.

Great message WillyTee! It makes sense to have the better weapon options related to the number of OP your fighter has.

It seems that I was making more or less the right choices, two handed for 3 OP and one handed (+ shield for parry or empty handed for dodge) for 4 OP.

I would have to try the 5 OP options as I don't know if the increased damage from dual wielding would make it for the lose of parry or dodge, though just damage wise it is for sure a better option that one handed weapons.

With the 7 OP, I still have to test it more, but I think the swap weapon tactic gets the best of each option. 1 OP to change to the two handed, then two attacks (5 OP) and the remaining point to swap again in order to get a better dodge (1 hand weapon) or parry (1 hand weapon + shield).

Thanks for the reply, though it seems like there are just a few moments where dual wielding or 2 handed weapons are better than one handed ones (And that's only damage wise).

I would love to have more reasons to use those options over one handed weapons...

[Hengist]

With all due honor I think Willy made an error, forgetting the -30% damage debuff for Dual Wielding.

If you compare a one handed weapon with Dual wielding 2 of that weapon, let x be the damage from 1 weapon and assume all attacks hit:

OP 3: Dual weapon scores 1.4x; 1 Handed 1x
OP 4: 1 Handed score 2x, Dual weapon 1.4x
OP 5: Dual weapon 2.8x, 1 handed 2x
OP 6: 1 Handed 3x; Dual weapon 2.8x
OP 7:
OP 8: 1 Handed 4x; Dual weapon 2.8x
OP 9: Dual Weapon 4.2x; 1 handed 4x

so it appears Dual weapon at base is preferred for damage dealing at OP 3,5,9 and 1 handed is preferred at OP 4,6, and 8.

skills and item boni will alter the evaluation significantly. For example, if the character had strong blow which provides +50% damage for 3 OP.

OP 3: 1 Handed 1.5x; Dual weapon 1.4x
OP 4: Dual Weapon 2.1x; 1 Handed 1.5x
OP 5: Dual weapon 2.8x; 1 Handed 2.5x
OP 6: 1 Handed 3x; Dual weapon 3.5x
OP 7: 1 Handed 3.5x; Dual Weapon 3.5x
OP 8: 1 Handed 4x; Dual Weapon 4.2x
OP 9: 1 Handed 4.5x; Dual Weapon 4.2x

With strong blow, 1 handed is preferred at OP 3 and 9, while Dual Weapon is preferred or equivalent at other OPs.

Even more complicated when you add strategic point abilities and on hit effects (Bless with Filth and its 8-16/18-24 poison damage on hit effect comes to mind.) Or Overwhelm which might stun the target enabling all those 2-handed Great Axe wielding lunatics to completely bypass a target's high Parry and/or Dodge or even run past the tanky frontline to get to those soft chewy mages and archers.

In one of my warbands I used a "thumper" with Overwhelm and a 2-handed weapon. With cloth armor and high Awareness Thumper had high initiative and movement but lower survivability. The plan, which to be fair didn't work out all the time, was for Thumper to knock things down and get out of the way so the hardcore killers could finish it off before the target had a chance to get up.

Dual wielding vrs. 1 handed is easier to evaluate. I'll work on Two-handed later. The important thing, I think, is to figure out what you want the unit to do, what you want other units to do with that unit and then look at the combination of weapons, skills, spells, and other equipment that provides that unit the best opportunity to do that job.

Originally posted by WillyTee:

Originally posted by WillyTee:

Two handers tend to do more damage on their first hit than two one-handers.

As such, it's really about offence points, if all you're looking for is to do max damage (not worried about defensive stats or initiative order at all)

3 OP - Two hander. You only get one swing, make the most of it. Your dodge and parry are poop at this stage anyways.
4 OP - One hander (and shield?). Two swings are better than one.
5 OP - Dual wielding - two full strength hits often beats a 100% and 80% hit combo form two hander (and you can throw in a sword for parry)
6 OP - One hander (three hits), or two-hander with strong blow (150%+80%), or dual-wield with skill attack (strong blow, vital strike, etc)
7 OP - One hander (+ shield?), or two swings with dual/two hander skill attack. Typically your other stats (strength/accuracy) will define what you need to do here.
8 OP - I'd take one hander here and just smush em in the face four times.

I would add I sometimes DO use a two hander with a 4 OP henchman, but typically this is when I've tailored them towards high accuracy and given them vital strike with a great sword.

[zhukodim]

Hengist did you missed damage scaling which comes from STR attribute? Becouse its not about OP only.

[WillyTee]

No.

My 'two full strength hits' simply refers to not suffering the -20% damage per swing that two handers suffer from. Truth be told your conclusions seems pretty much the same as mine.

I generally tried to make skills an afterthought as to really include them in the mix at every stage makes it pretty complicated.

[Lord Chronos]

Originally posted by Hengist:

For example, if the character had strong blow which provides +50% damage for 3 OP.

OP 3: 1 Handed 1.5x; Dual weapon 1.4x

Not sure about the calculations for OP 3, shouldn't be 1.4 x 1.5 = 2.1x (same as OP 4)?

I don't get the reference to the 30% damage comparing two handed weapons and dual wielding ones... Shouldn't be better the damage with two handed weapons the less attacks you make?

It's true it depends on each weapon damage, but it seems like the two handed weapon is the right choice if you are only able to attack once, as (if I remember correctly) two handed weapons doesn't have any debufs for first attack while dual wielding weapons do... Am I missing something?

[nithon]

Originally posted by Hengist:

OP 8: 1 Handed 4x; Dual weapon 2.8x

Shouldn't this be 4.2 for duals as with 8 OP you can attack 3 times ? (2pts for first attack, 3 for 2nd and 3 for third = 8 total)

[Rogue Scientist]

One last note - remember with a 1-handed weapon with an odd number of OP, if you parry an attack you'll be able to use that last OP to make a counter-attack.


Personally I wish dual wielding was better at counter-attacking than 1-handed weapons, but mostly I'm glad it didn't fall into the same trap as the tabletop rules.

[Stymie Jackson]

Originally posted by nithon:

Shouldn't this be 4.2 for duals as with 8 OP you can attack 3 times ? (2pts for first attack, 3 for 2nd and 3 for third = 8 total)

Tiring stacks. Takes 9 OP for three attacks.

Originally posted by Lord Chronos:

Am I missing something?

You aren't. 2-Hander is superior, raw damage wise, until three attacks. At three attacks DW and 2H are roughly the same total damage. At 4+ dual wield pulls ahead, but that only really matters for Order Builds or Impressives.

I cover a bit of this in my two guides as well, for reference.

And just to make the math more complex, ya'll forgetting about Adrenaline Rush.

[Hengist]

Lord Chrono

Yep, you are correct I forgot to add strong blow like a dummy, at 3 OP with strong blow Dual Wield would be 1.5*1.4 = 2.1.

Nithon, tiring stacks so for Dual wielding you get one attack for 2, the next for 3 (at 5 total OP) and the final one for 4 (at a total of 9 OP for 3 attacks)

I'll defer to Mr. Jackson on Two handed Great Weapons.

[ThePendulum]

Originally posted by Hengist:

Lord Chrono

Yep, you are correct I forgot to add strong blow like a dummy, at 3 OP with strong blow Dual Wield would be 1.5*1.4 = 2.1.

Nithon, tiring stacks so for Dual wielding you get one attack for 2, the next for 3 (at 5 total OP) and the final one for 4 (at a total of 9 OP for 3 attacks)

I'll defer to Mr. Jackson on Two handed Great Weapons.

It would seem to me, that even for heroes, unless your building one for critting and special skills and the such, that all around, one handers are almost always a more reliable and more viable outfit--especially when considering the extra parry chance & more importantly, the melee resist.

The "slightly" extra damage just doesnt seem worth it except when running a daredevil build--or something similar--as far as two handers/dual wielders are concerned.

[Stymie Jackson]

Originally posted by ThePendulum:

The "slightly" extra damage just doesnt seem worth it except when running a daredevil build--or something similar--as far as two handers/dual wielders are concerned.

This. You need to stack the damage modifiers, like using Daredevil and/or Mighty Charge. Then the damage differential becomes worth it. Same for crit...crit is based upon max weapon damage.

Of course, if you don't care about parry you lose some of the benefit of a shield.

I can one-turn kill someone at Rank 10 (~300 health) with a mighty-charge strong blow combo. You can't really do that with a 1-hander. So there are different roles for all styles.

[Spoonie]

Huh. I was looking at making a Mighty Charge Marauder, and I assumed taking Adrenaline Rush to gain an OP for a third attack would be more damage than a single Strong Blow, but I guess I didn't add up the percentages.