Fighting Claws vs. Weeping Blades

[Burusagi]

Which one do you prefer and why...? I'm sorta torn because both seem neat!

[Dwarfurious]

I went with Weeping Blades, the damage over time gets really good with them and your Assassins/Black skaven are likely to be better at dodging than parrying anyways and that also means good at climbing. And using a poison weapon also means you'll probably want to invest in the poison resistance bypass which is dandy because skaven get lots of good poisons.

[Burusagi]

However, a counter-argument to that (especially on the Black Skaven) would be the - Armour Absorption on the Fighting Claws.

With just white Fighting Claws (not sure if higher quality gets increased bonus) you'll ignore 16% of their Armour Absorption!

EDIT: Shame therefor that the Black Skaven can use Weeping Blades but the Gutter Runner can't. I'd love for it to be the other way around!

[董]

Both r good, but id say claws because it bypass armor. Armor is about the only thing that affects the amount of dmg u dealt. Thats why perforation enchants r tier 5 stuffs.

Bypassing 30% armour means ure doing 43% more dmg which u wouldnt have done otherwise, if it gets mitigated by armour, just something to think about.

[Dwarfurious]

Originally posted by Alcohol Fueled Brewtality:

However, a counter-argument to that (especially on the Black Skaven) would be the - Armour Absorption on the Fighting Claws.

With just white Fighting Claws (not sure if higher quality gets increased bonus) you'll ignore 16% of their Armour Absorption!

It does get better, but what do you mean 16% armor penetration on White? Even on Masterwork its only 18%, nowhere near 30%. And how does 30% armor bypass equal 43% more damage? Wouldnt it just be 30% more damage?
Weeping Blade poison does 24-36 damage on a Masterwork, and poison ignores armor, 3 hits is 3 stacks so its like 50% of the weapons damage turns into a DoT, you could also have no str and still hurt with the poison alone.

[Wendek]

Poison ignores armor completely though. A Weeping Blades Black Skaven can get very high Agility, and the Poison will allow him to have pretty good damage despite lower Strength. If you give him Poison Expert (even basic) and use a Sorceror's Bless With Filth, that's a lot of damage that ignores armor, and most units will have 10% chance or less to resist the effect with the -20% from PE.

That said, my best Black Skavens have always used a Halberd instead, damage gets pretty ridiculous. So I'm tempted to answer "none of the above" to the actual thread question.

[Burusagi]

Originally posted by Dwarfurious:

It does get better, but what do you mean 16% armor penetration on White?

Black Skaven get 10% by their class Passive and white quality Fighting Claws come with 6%.

[Dwarfurious]

Oh well then thats not really Claw specific!
@Wendek why Halberd? If you were going for high crit then sure but claws do more damage due to penetration. Best thing about claws is not having to put them away for athletic rolls.

[Icyage]

claws can also benefit from the skaven passive that gives 5-10% crit on dagger/claws

[Burusagi]

Originally posted by Dwarfurious:

Oh well then thats not really Claw specific!

Nope, but it does sort of make the decision of Claws vs. Blades a bit harder for Black Skaven :/

[rdngmikey]

Originally posted by Dwarfurious:

It does get better, but what do you mean 16% armor penetration on White? Even on Masterwork its only 18%, nowhere near 30%. And how does 30% armor bypass equal 43% more damage? Wouldnt it just be 30% more damage?

The magic of math, it would actually be a 60% increase.
50 points of damage vs 50% armour = 25 damage total
50 points dmg vs 50% arm - 30% bypass = 40 points total
new total(40) - old(25) gives difference of 15; 15/25 = 60% increase from old to new.


For an easier understanding of it take the basic 100 to 150
100 is 33% less than 150
150 is a 50% increase over 100

[Wendek]

Originally posted by Dwarfurious:

Oh well then thats not really Claw specific!
@Wendek why Halberd? If you were going for high crit then sure but claws do more damage due to penetration. Best thing about claws is not having to put them away for athletic rolls.

1) Claws get -25% Final Damage reduction because they're dual-wield. "Final damage" means it's -25% after everything else has been accounted for (so it's NOT like, say, you have a total of +100%, it doesn't just reduce it to 75%. Instead it takes the value at +100% and then removes 25% of that). Halberd doesn't have this huge drawback.
2) Halberd is one of only two 2h weapons that doesn't give 10% free dodge (the other being the Sisters-exclusive Great Flail), and also gets crit damage bonus (which you'll trigger relatively often with Swarm). It's also the only 2-handers that the Skavens get anyway.
3) With Black Hunger, frontloading all the damage into the first attack gives huge damage that claws cannot compete with, due to the aforementioned -25% that heavily reduces the impact of Black Hunger. The loss is even worse if you go for Daredevil, but I didn't so I won't dwell on that.
4) With the availability of Sorceror's Curse on top of the Black Skaven's innate 10% armor bypass, I don't think the Claws' natural bypass will give you more damage than the Halberd.

Most of the time I couldn't care less about athletic rolls, or dodge for that matter. I played my Black Skavens as bullets, and in several situations they did the same damage as the Rat Ogre.

[Dwarfurious]

Ok i just look at it as a total damage thing, like 50% armor just means you're dealing 50% of your damage but 30% bypass bumps you up to 80% of your damage
@Wendek Fair enough, its also a 15 initiative gap and a 2-6 base damage drop but sounds like Halberd would still come out in top for damage. It doesnt SAY the fighting claws have Tiring but they still do dont they? I use WB over claws personally

[Wendek]

Yes the claws have tiring too, just like the Weeping Blades. Otherwise with 4 attacks they'd be a lot stronger. :p

[WarFerret]

I use the terrain HEAVILY to influence battles. Leaving the AI one way up at me where it has to face 4 of my rats at a time for example... after it climbs to me. So I am heavily in favor of claws. I use claws and warp pistols/shirks. If you make it up on a ledge and lock it down you can generally DESTROY most deadly missions without a loss.

[WarFerret]

And by loss I mean an OoA char