How effective are parry tanks really?

[Arrrtyom]

So I haven't actually met huge monsters yet, but I've heard that parry doesn't work against stronger unarmed attacks or summat. Which means it'd be horrible to tank using parry, yes? I mean I'm pretty sure I would definitely need more tanking against those attacks, not less.

So to confirm: Melee resistance is the safest method, dodge is the, uh, second safest method? (I don't know how much accuracy the AI adds actually) and parry is more of a half-offensive tanking method.

Edit: Oh yes, I remembered why I don't use dodge. Agility doesn't increase dps, unlike weapon skill.

[Greybush]

There are no set rules, but simply put:
-Parry is for med-high dmg, high armour units
-Dodge is for low-med dmg, low armour, high Agi units
-Melee res is for low-medium dmg, high survivability units

If you want a tank with high armour and HP that also does high dmg, you go for Parry build with Heavy Armour, for example.
Or if you want a very mobile flanker (or ranged), you go for high Agi and Cloth or Light Armour, making high Dodge the most practical defense (the less you need to spend on defensive skills, the more you can spend on Movement and offensive skills).

It's more about what you want the unit to do, than what's best. What's best can be very situational.

[Boink]

Kernest님이 먼저 게시:

Boink님이 먼저 게시:

As for kernest there is a higher chances for Skaven - Cult to use items that bypass parry.

As far as the Skaven are concerned, again, excluding the Impressive, there simply isn't.

Those items you're referring to, Daggers and Spears, also bypass Dodge, and Spears bypass Dodge by a lot more than they bypass Parry. Masterwork Spears bypass 11% more Dodge than Parry, while masterwork Daggers bypass 1% more Parry than Dodge.

My point with the original op is that 2handers gives out more damage per hit a higher risk to get bypassed and better to use a dodge build tank because of bonuses. The reason why i'm using parry build on other better targets. You did mentioned cult hence why I corrected you. Not only heroes in bold letters can bypass parry.

[Arrrtyom]

Boink님이 먼저 게시:

The best layout you ever have is 1 parry build hero - 1 dodge build hero or henchman the rest melee henchman starting off with parry until you transition to melee resist or crit build/combination. Like some already pointed out melee resist is such a BIG investment and it is only very situational to the point that it needs 2-3+ enemy combatants or an impressive/neutral to attack it to be worthwhile.

Hmm but if they can't hit me, it doesn't matter if I don't attack as hard. LOL

Admittedly I have no idea what's in the story missions so I can't say that with full confidence. I'm currently using mercs now, and I don't really see many passive skills that are all that 'offensive' other than some crit ones. And the apparently popular daredevil gives you -10% melee resist at max and a free dodge attempt for the enemy gasp. I guess I could use a spear/dagger to counter the dodge.

[Karond]

They're very effective.

People like to mention the units that ignore parry, but they're few in relation to how many units there are. Plus, you should diversify your warband to have a few to deal with those threats (have your impressive deal with theirs, and suddenly there are a lot less parry ignoring characters around).

Versus other targets, parry is better than dodge usually. Sure, it doesn't provide much vs daredevil, nor does it protect against the very popular strong blow, but it does in general provide a higher chance of success than dodge when using a shield. Shield specialist and max weapon skill is all you need to get 110% parry, and to this add a shield or helmet enchantment and/or other skills. The heavier armor capabilities helps a lot too for survivability, and the better weaponskill compared to dodge builds means you hit more.

It should also be mentioned that sigmarite warhammers, which are extremely popular, provide negative bonuses to dodge but not to parry. In addition, for PvP there is a very popular consumable (sticky sludge) that gives a wide area of -30% dodge, but not to parry.

Most of all though, the cheaper counter-attacks is rather useful as well.

[Boink]

Artyom님이 먼저 게시:

Hmm but if they can't hit me, it doesn't matter if I don't attack as hard. LOL

It does most of the times AI go for your lighter lower level warriors and melee resist is not 100% protection.... range can stun your melee resist tanker and magic....

The best way is not to put all your eggs in one basket and make a warband with good conssitency. Dodge build warriors can get accuracy up for critting getting a stun chance is awesome, parry can focus on actual damage. When you are counterattacking on enemy turns you will wittle down most AI units. Imagine AI units dyng on their turn? that is a beautiful sight.

[Reaver79]

Indeed its really only against certain spawns and possessed you cant use it (and ofc the rat ogre) but really push your melee resist and you can go close if not above 100.. really helps deal with such enemies..

[Prince Kaine]

I go for melee resist tank when I want only one or 2 guys tanking. Range warbands are the one using them the most effectively I believe, because your front line will allways be outnumbered, as they are just here to slow down the opposition. You don't care about the damage of your tanks, because the rest of the warband are dps. So you focus on the highest survivability/mobility possible for those few holding the line.

I go for a mix of parry/dodge tanks when I'm heavily focused on close range. On one vs one those skills will be enough to mitigate the damages, as it is not that often that someone attacks more than 4 times. Furthermore if you select your match up the way you are supposed to parry gives you this oh so sweet -1op to retaliate, that can really improve the dps. My mercs captain countered 13 times in one round with a one hand+shield. 26 red pills worth. It is worth 3 maxxed heroes red pills total. Alone. So parry can become quite OP, if you end up against warband that can't bypass it (sisters, mercs, witch hunters, skavens without impressives). I am quite happy there's this blind spot, would be wayyyy too good otherwise.

Finally remember that you can stack defensive layers. A parry tank can add a decent MR to the mix, and a heavy armour, effectively stacking 3 defensive layers. Nearly all MR tanks do so in heavy armour, stacking 2 layers. That is where you reach insanely high amounts of ehp.
Dodgers tend to have a natural high MR too, due to the need to focus on the 2 main components of melee resist, agility to dodge and weapon skill to actually hit something.

So for me the choice is enforced by the warband fighting style you decided to go for. All are valid, they have advantages AND drawbacks.
To sum it up MR is allways 'ON' making it very good at tanking loads of attack, but is highly vulnerable to debuff modifications (because every single point removed from you max MR hurts a lot. If you have 1% chance to hit the MR tank, and you remove 10% to his MR you effectively multiplied your to hit chance by one thousand.)
Dodge is the most versatile and reliable. It is quite hard to lower significantly to lower a focused dodger under 80% dodge chance, making it the most reliable defense... but when you are out of dodges you are more or less out of luck, and a gentle breeze might bring you down.
Parry is the most aggressive defense. It allows you to do more damage with a defensive skill. But it is limited in it's use and requires you to check who you are going to fight.
Finally remember: a stunned opponent does not defend himself.

[Kernest]

Boink님이 먼저 게시:

My point with the original op is that 2handers gives out more damage per hit a higher risk to get bypassed and better to use a dodge build tank because of bonuses. The reason why i'm using parry build on other better targets. You did mentioned cult hence why I corrected you. Not only heroes in bold letters can bypass parry.

The only differences between Dodging and Parrying a 2-hand-weapon attack are 1) the 10% most 2-handed weapons give to the defender and 2) the up to 20% bonus to Dodge from wearing clothing vs. heavy armour.

That's 20-30% extra Dodge chance, traded for 30% armour absorption, nothing else, since neither of those mentioned differences affect the Parry chance of a Parry Tank, who can go above 100% Parry easily as well. Often it is in fact smarter to use a heavily armoured Parry tank against 2-H wielding enemies due to the fact that should you fail or get attacked more than 3 times, you take significantly less damage.

How exactly did you correct me on the cult question? The only units in a Possessed warband that ignore Parry are potentially the heroes, while they have their leader and all the henchmen who might have some Parry bypass from skills and weapons, but not significantly more than Dodge bypass.

My point was not that Parry cannot be bypassed, it was that most methods of bypassing Parry, also work on Dodge, sometimes even better as in the case of Spears.

And you've not answered my question as to why some Skaven cannot be parried against? As pointed out, excluding their Impressive, they are in fact better at bypassing Dodge, which would suggest that using Parry is in fact smarter.

[Frankie]

Karond님이 먼저 게시:

They're very effective.

People like to mention the units that ignore parry, but they're few in relation to how many units there are. Plus, you should diversify your warband to have a few to deal with those threats (have your impressive deal with theirs, and suddenly there are a lot less parry ignoring characters around).

Versus other targets, parry is better than dodge usually. Sure, it doesn't provide much vs daredevil, nor does it protect against the very popular strong blow, but it does in general provide a higher chance of success than dodge when using a shield. Shield specialist and max weapon skill is all you need to get 110% parry, and to this add a shield or helmet enchantment and/or other skills. The heavier armor capabilities helps a lot too for survivability, and the better weaponskill compared to dodge builds means you hit more.

It should also be mentioned that sigmarite warhammers, which are extremely popular, provide negative bonuses to dodge but not to parry. In addition, for PvP there is a very popular consumable (sticky sludge) that gives a wide area of -30% dodge, but not to parry.

Most of all though, the cheaper counter-attacks is rather useful as well.

You just explained why they aren't very effective. :) "Parry tank" can be misleading because as soon as the warrior comes across a Possessed with a Slicer he stops being a tank. With the skills that decrease the chances they are invalid for pvp for example. The best feature of parry is the counter-attack, so that build is better coined as dps or a hybrid at least. I always try to boost melee resistance with any of my tanks, just in case.

[Kernest]

Frankie님이 먼저 게시:

You just explained why they aren't very effective. :) "Parry tank" can be misleading because as soon as the warrior comes across a Possessed with a Slicer he stops being a tank.

And the moment a Dodge Tank runs into someone with mastered Precise Strike and dual-wielded Swords of Havoc, he stops being

[Frankie]

Kernest님이 먼저 게시:

Frankie님이 먼저 게시:

You just explained why they aren't very effective. :) "Parry tank" can be misleading because as soon as the warrior comes across a Possessed with a Slicer he stops being a tank.

And the moment a Dodge Tank runs into someone with mastered Precise Strike and dual-wielded Swords of Havoc, he stops being

Nothing negates Dodging 100%, so having a steady 125% still gives you a decent tank. Also mentioned that I usually add as much MR as possible, and since it needs Agility and Weapon Skill they mesh lovely.

[Kernest]

Frankie님이 먼저 게시:

Nothing negates Dodging 100%, so having a steady 125% still gives you a decent tank. Also mentioned that I usually add as much MR as possible, and since it needs Agility and Weapon Skill they mesh lovely.

No, not completely, but Dodge tanks do rely on a bit more luck than their Parry counterparts, what with their lower crit resist, less armour absorption and lower wounds total.

[Boink]

Kernest님이 먼저 게시:

The only differences between Dodging and Parrying a 2-hand-weapon attack are 1) the 10% most 2-handed weapons give to the defender and 2) the up to 20% bonus to Dodge from wearing clothing vs. heavy armour.

That's 20-30% extra Dodge chance, traded for 30% armour absorption, nothing else, since neither of those mentioned differences affect the Parry chance of a Parry Tank, who can go above 100% Parry easily as well. Often it is in fact smarter to use a heavily armoured Parry tank against 2-H wielding enemies due to the fact that should you fail or get attacked more than 3 times, you take significantly less damage.

So are you suggesting that mobs hit 3 times with a 2 hander often than 1-2 times? Even if they all 3 connect on your dodge build the penalties from it is significant enough that your dodge build can withstand. Not all mobs hit 3 times with a 2 hander mathematically speaking you are going to go up against with 1 - 2 hits from a 2hander.

Also are you suggesting that a SPEAR equipped double hander is equals to the damage a 2-hander can put in to go up against a dodge build or even to parry builds.

2 hander initial hits are high on it's first hit the big DIFFERENCE you speak of is high chances of that hit to get dodge.

[Arrrtyom]

Frankie님이 먼저 게시:

Kernest님이 먼저 게시:

And the moment a Dodge Tank runs into someone with mastered Precise Strike and dual-wielded Swords of Havoc, he stops being

Nothing negates Dodging 100%, so having a steady 125% still gives you a decent tank. Also mentioned that I usually add as much MR as possible, and since it needs Agility and Weapon Skill they mesh lovely.

While we're talking about dodge tanks, is it worth it using the amputated character (+20% dodge but only 1 weapon) as a dodge-dps? Problem is that since I'm unable to dual wield and i'm adding agility, my attack damage would be even lower than normal dodge characters.

[Kernest]

Boink님이 먼저 게시:

So are you suggesting that mobs hit 3 times with a 2 hander often than 1-2 times? Even if they all 3 connect on your dodge build the penalties from it is significant enough that your dodge build can withstand. Not all mobs hit 3 times with a 2 hander mathematically speaking you are going to go up against with 1 - 2 hits from a 2hander.

You know, there are situations where you end up in combat with more than 1 enemy, usually against your will, without care for your carefully laid plans...

Boink님이 먼저 게시:

Also are you suggesting that a SPEAR equipped double hander is equals to the damage a 2-hander can put in to go up against a dodge build or even to parry builds.

2 hander initial hits are high on it's first hit the big DIFFERENCE you speak of is high chances of that hit to get dodge.

I'm saying that it is smarter to put heavily armoured Parry tanks up against enemies wielding great weapons (2-hand, not dual-wield), because despite the +10% extra Dodge chance their weapons may grant you, it's more important to negate the damage they deal in situations where your stance is broken or your Parry/Dodge is used up by an enemy engaging you after you take your stance but before the 2-hand weapon wielding enemy hits you. If your Parry OR Dodge is at 95% after the enemy reductions, both are as likely to not take the damage.

We can argue whether it's easier to get so high Parry % or Dodge % that it stays at 95% even after enemy reductions, but in the end the difference is that should all else go sideways, the Parry tank still has at least 30% more armour absorption, so that in an otherwise identical situation, the Parry tank likely lives to fight another turn, while the Dodge tank likely doesn't.

Also, you cannot dual-wield spears (and I never suggested so), I just pointed out yet again, that most methods of reducing Parry also reduce Dodge, excepts in the case of spears where they reduce Dodge significantly more than Parry.