Sigmar's Might vs Blessing of Ulric balancing issue

[cantila1]

It just occured to me that Sigmar's Might is way better than Blessing of Ulric and I think this is something the devs should adjust.

Let's have a look at the superior version between the two:

Sigmar's Might
Costs 2 OP affects allies within 5m range
-10% casting chance +20% divine wrath
+10% crit chance, +20% melee damage

Blessing of Ulric
Costs 4 OPaffects allies within 5m range
-20% casting chance +30% divine wrath
+10% crit chance +30% crit damage

So Sigmar's Might is just better in every way, because +20% damage all the time is better than 30% damage on crits (unless your crit % is very high on all affected allies facing very high armored targets) it costs DOUBLE amount of OP to cast, and have less chance of success (making it very punish if you fail, while SM you can just try recast for little loss and 35% divine wrath which is almost same as BoU's base chance).

It just doesn't make any sense why BoU would be so much worse in comparison in every way, having no edge in anything compared to SM.

[Paranoia]

I personally always finded it approppriate, because Sigmar's Might is Sister-specific, whereas Blessing of Ulric can be given to any Order warband.
A Warband Specific instance of a Skill/Spell can afford to be better than a general instance, as singular strengths are the parts that differentiate the Warbands.

[Stymie Jackson]

I posted the same thing when the Wolf Priest first came out, but I didn't get any response from anyone else so Kes dropped it. Sigmar's Might is far superior IMO from an OP perspective.

[Penny Royal]

Maybe Sigmar is more powerful than Ulric. :D

[DonCarlos]

If you balance spell for spell, skill for skill you will inevitably end up with a uniform gameplay, where every faction feels the same.
This is not how balancing in this game is supposed to work.
Here, every faction has its strengthes and Magic is supposed to be the strength of the Sisters.
If you take it away, you should give them something else, or remove them from the game.

[moneytalk18]

Originally posted by DonCarlos:

If you balance spell for spell, skill for skill you will inevitably end up with a uniform gameplay, where every faction feels the same.
This is not how balancing in this game is supposed to work.
Here, every faction has its strengthes and Magic is supposed to be the strength of the Sisters.
If you take it away, you should give them something else, or remove them from the game.

I will have to agree on this one. Those superior spells of Sisters is what separates them from others.

[Paranoia]

Besides, my Sisters once upon a time had both.

Maiden with both Mastered Blessing of Ulric and Mastered Sigmar's Might on is pant-♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ terrifying.

[cantila1]

Originally posted by DonCarlos:

If you balance spell for spell, skill for skill you will inevitably end up with a uniform gameplay, where every faction feels the same.
This is not how balancing in this game is supposed to work.
Here, every faction has its strengthes and Magic is supposed to be the strength of the Sisters.
If you take it away, you should give them something else, or remove them from the game.

I completely disagree with this and I often hear this for Warhammer, be it this game, Total War or whatever. Honestly I feel people who say this doesn't have a clue what proper balancing means. It doesn't mean that you uniform everything. If you changed BoU to cost 2 OP it would still be the same spell as before but a spell worht taking. Making a spell useless for the sake of diversifying it further is completely pointless. Who cares if you have unique skills available if they are so bad nobody takes them? (let's face it there are a bunch of those in this game already).

There is no reason to make BoU so much worse in order to make SoS "unique". You could lower the OP to 2 or 3 (but then lower divine qrath and up the casting chance) and it would still be far inferior but worth taking. SM is already unique in that no other spell does what it does.

[cantila1]

Originally posted by ljlinna:

I personally always finded it approppriate, because Sigmar's Might is Sister-specific, whereas Blessing of Ulric can be given to any Order warband.
A Warband Specific instance of a Skill/Spell can afford to be better than a general instance, as singular strengths are the parts that differentiate the Warbands.

By this reasoning they need to nerf Ulric's frostbolt too because it is on par with the comet in terms of cost etc?

[Dave]

Originally posted by cantila1:

If you changed BoU to cost 2 OP it would still be the same spell as before but a spell worht taking. Making a spell useless for the sake of diversifying it further is completely pointless. Who cares if you have unique skills available if they are so bad nobody takes them? (let's face it there are a bunch of those in this game already).

There is no reason to make BoU so much worse in order to make SoS "unique". You could lower the OP to 2 or 3 (but then lower divine qrath and up the casting chance) and it would still be far inferior but worth taking. SM is already unique in that no other spell does what it does.

But in this case people do take BoU. In the post directly above you ljlinna said he took it on his Sisters. It's used in Witch Hunter Builds. If something is getting play time, does it need a buff?

[Stymie Jackson]

The logic people are using in this thread escapes me.

By this logic we need to nerf hammer Globadier healing and the new WH Healing Hand spell to the ground in order to protect Sisters. Spellcasting and HEALING is a Sister thing, and other factions should be inferior to them, right?

Right?

So yes, I'll totally agree with you all once you destroy the effectiveness of these two things.

Otherwise you guys need to redo your definition of "balance". Everything should be effective without being clones.

There's asymetric balance, and then there's imbalance. This is a case of imbalance.

Originally posted by dave:

But in this case people do take BoU. In the post directly above you ljlinna said he took it on his Sisters

I've used BoU extensively in MP. I no longer use it, it is not worth the OP. I have never seen anyone else use it in MP, period.

Both my statement and yours may be true, but they are fully unsupported anecdotes. I doubt people are using BoU because they would have complained about it before hand. It is not worth 4 OP, period. If it was so great I'd have seen the Merc players using it in the last tournament. None of them did.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Stymie Jackson:

The logic people are using in this thread escapes me.

By this logic we need to nerf hammer Globadier healing and the new WH Healing Hand spell to the ground in order to protect Sisters. Spellcasting and HEALING is a Sister thing, and other factions should be inferior to them, right?

A nice strawman you have there, Stymie.
No one said that every aspect of a Warbands strength should overclass every instance of everything available to anyone else.
Just that, the same way comparing stuff directly between Warbands is not a very valid point because contect matters, declaring something in general use to be too weak because some specific Warband does it better is not a valid argument as such.
I use Blessing of Ulric in my Witch Hunters because Warrior Priest offers no damage Buffs. Damage Buff Spells are not Witch Hunter thing, thus there might not really need to be a too valid Spell on DLC Heroes for them to access Damage Buffs with. They should be inferior at doing what they would be incapable of doing at all otherwise.
Critical Boost on Executioner is absolutely Brutal, and Area offensive boost for Witch Hunters works.

[cantila1]

Iljanna what you and others are saying though IS that SoS spells should be overpowered compared to Ulric's because you think WH's are too strong in other parts, or a comobination of the two would be. But this is not true at all, the Maiden is arguably more powerful than the executioner already, and by adding SM to it compared to BoU to the Executioner makes it even worse.

Stymie is on point here, you are confusing asymetric balance with balance, like so many other people do. BoU should not be worse than SM, it should just be different.There is no reason for this spell to be worse ine very possible way. If it truly because the WH are so good in other parts (which I don't beleive), then those parts should be toned down instead because otherwise WH warbands without Ulric would be overpowered?

There is simply no point in having bad skills or less cost effective ones, because no competitive player will pick them over his other spells. What's the point in having a spell that is inferior to his other choices? To make SoS players happy? Worst logic ever. Just remove it altogether then.

You haven't answered why frostbolt should be kept on par with the comet either, if you are so concered about SoS having the upper hand in magic.

The combo of SM+Maiden+Second Wind is way more powerful than BoU+Ulric's gift+Executioner for example. And the Maiden can't even be Trial by Pain'd so your balancing logic is moot.

But I am fine with Maiden combo, I just think the Ulric's spell should be viable and competitive just like I want all skills for ALL warbands to be so you can make an actual strategic choice instead of having one or a few builds that everyone picks because thos eare the only competitively viable ones.

Critical boost for the Executioner is absolutely not more brutal than raw +damage is for the maiden, especially since most builds are anti-crit, raw damage is so much better especially combined with Daredevil and Frenzy (something you won't pick for the Executioner, especially not frenzy!). Also BoU is way worse then Gift of Ulric too, which is cheaper and gives the same damage boost as SM (just not the crit chance).

BoU should possibly cost 3 OP because GoU costs two and BoU could be considered better as it's an area effect, but the spell casting chance should be higher, and divine wrath lower than it is now.

BoU doesn't only need a bufff with SM in mind, it's just generally not good. Those 4 OP are better spent on casting GoU and Winter's Chill for example. They will always be the better alternative and less risky too because if you fail one you only lost 2 OP, and if you get an AoE DW it will usually not affect your other warrior unlike when you cast BoU.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by cantila1:

Iljanna what you and others are saying though IS that SoS spells should be overpowered compared to Ulric's because you think WH's are too strong in other parts, or a comobination of the two would be. But this is not true at all, the Maiden is arguably more powerful than the executioner already, and by adding SM to it compared to BoU to the Executioner makes it even worse.

Stymie is on point here, you are confusing asymetric balance with balance, like so many other people do. BoU should not be worse than SM, it should just be different.

And you have missed my point by a hair.

I never said (I checked) that Blessing of Ulric isn't little too bad.
I said that your chosen argument for buffing it sucked. Hard. Sorry.

Personally, I would think it having +5%/+M10% CritHit, +10%/+M20% CritDamage and 2 turn Duration would be about correct for the Cost.

As said, you are right that the Blessing is weak for the cost. Your chosen way to demonstrate it was simply not good argumentation.

[Stymie Jackson]

Originally posted by ljlinna:

A nice strawman you have there, Stymie.

I don't get why it's ok for the sister-specific spell can be better than the Wolf Priest just because he's not faction specific, but it's ok for the healing globe to heal just as much per OP spent when that's not faction specific either.

My point is that this all all just arbitrary, you're picking and choosing stuff subjectively, just like I did. The Sister Crit buff can be better because the WP Crit buff is available to more factions. That's the gist of your statement here:

A Warband Specific instance of a Skill/Spell can afford to be better than a general instance, as singular strengths are the parts that differentiate the Warbands.

It's not a strawman to state the same exact argument as you, but with Healing, such as with the Globadier which also heals AOE, for 10 health per OP spent.

Sister Healing Spell: Warband Specific Instance
Globadier Healing Globes: General instance

It's just me being as completely arbitrary as you.

[Paranoia]

by the way, cantila1, I apologize if I sound more confrontational than I intend to.
I blame migraine and lack of sleep due to said migraine.