Best mutations for a Chaos Spawn?

[swilhelm73]

I started a new Chaos Warband with a Magister, a Spawn, and 5 Dark Souls. After a number of missions my Spawn hit level 7 and got his third mutation - Extra Limb -Axe, Thousand Eyes, and now Wyrdstone horns.

Extra Limb Axe is great more damage and parry/dodge bypass. Thousand Eyes is good since he can't use armor anyway. I am split on the wyrdstone horns though. They look stupid but a 5% melee resist after getting hit is...okish.

Should I recycle this spawn or keep him?

[Lead Paintchips]

If you can get three arm mutations (with a ripper), that thing is a true monster that can tear right through anything.

I know my ideal spawn would have the Ripper, Smasher, and extra limb: sword.

This one might do while you're looking for something better.

[Master]

Its not too bad. keep for the mean time while hiring/training better ones.

Best mutation combinations will also depend how you intend to use him and what skills to train.

And if you have not trained your current chaos spawn in any skills yet. Can consider the following

1) Anticipation - getting hit the 2nd time would be much harder
2) Weak spot - even more dodge/parry bypass
3) Armor break - stack more armor bypass to deal more damage

[Paranoia]

Wyrdstone Horns and Thousand Eyes combine nicely, the Spawn, if given any Melee Resistance through Agility+Weapon Skill, Awareness and Defensive Stance, will get pretty impossible to hit, and then one can put the rest of the points into offense.

[Boris Hauer]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

through Dodge+Weapon Skill

Paranoia probably meant Agility+Weapon Skill.

[swilhelm73]

I was going to build my spawn as below: Sidestep, Avoid, Awareness, Quick Incision, Mighty Charge. Basically he'll be hard to hit, and he'll have decent melee resist.

http://www.pyrospace.co.uk/mordheim/#eyJwIjoiY2hhb3Nfc3Bhd24iLCJhIjp7InMiOjYsInQiOjksImFnIjozLCJsIjo4LCJpIjo2LCJhbCI6MywidyI6OCwiYiI6MCwiYWMiOjJ9LCJlIjp7fSwic2siOlt7Im4iOiJ0ZXJyb3IiLCJ0IjowLCJ2IjowfSx7Im4iOiJzaWRlc3RlcCIsInQiOjEsInYiOjF9LHsibiI6ImF2b2lkIiwidCI6MCwidiI6MX0seyJuIjoicXVpY2tfaW5jaXNpb24iLCJ0IjowLCJ2IjoxfSx7Im4iOiJtaWdodHlfY2hhcmdlIiwidCI6MSwidiI6MX0seyJuIjoiYXdhcmVuZXNzIiwidCI6MCwidiI6MX1dLCJzcCI6W10sIm0iOltdLCJpIjpbXSwiYiI6W119

[Boris Hauer]

My two cents. Avoid Avoid and Sidestep, take Defensive Stance and Anticipation. Putting two layers of defence, you risk to be not so good in either of them. Your mutations already give you melee resistance, point on that. And even if your Impressive gets hit from time to time, he's a pool of wounds, he can take it. Worse case scenario is your Impressive can't hit a thing; Quick Incision helps you in that regard, but I prefer Weak Spot to bypass dodge chance (you already don't care about the parry one) or Precise Strike as a first hit to use the odd OPs.

[Boris Hauer]

Ah, also: Mighty Charge is useful for the damage, but useless for the parry bypass. Strong Blow is similar but you can use it when already engaged (so: more often). If you really like charges, I'd suggest either Swift Charge (which deals less damage but has a little dodge bypass and improved hit chance), Bull Charge to charge enemies in ambush from a further distance than their ambush radius, or Strider to improve the hit chance of all charges. Swift Charge takes the cake, imho.

[swilhelm73]

So running the numbers, Side Step+Avoid will give me 3 100% dodges, and Defensive Stance+Anticipation would give me 20% melee + 6%for each hit.

Doesn't this mean I'd have to expect a LOT of attacks per turn for the latter to be better? If you presume that every attack against him would be a hit, but not a critical, then defensive stance would be better at 6 attacks/turn.

That hasn't happened much so far - in big scrums the AI prefers to attacks other characters.


Mighty Charge has double the damage output of Strong Blow, though as you point out you can't always use it. I guess it depends on whether he is charging someone at least every other turn vs strong blow. I'd say the answer so far is that he usually is.

[Bloodscape]

If you have Wyrdstone Horns (you haven't put in the mutations) as well as anticipation you would get +11% melee resist each time your hit. But your not increasing your dodge all the way. For a melee resist, you really want all in agility and WS.

Put in your mutations, up your agility and see if your melee resist +20% and +11% per hit is worth it to you versus another impressive (swinging 4 times).

The 100% dodge is misleading. The enemy takes away your dodge with his accuracy stat and impressives tend to have high accuracy. So you would have a decent dodge for 3 attacks but the 4th is to be taken through damage.

Melee resist is the opposite. You begin by having the least and end by having the most. You will probably get hit more often with a decent dodge and no defense for the 4th attack.

Then there is the Rat Ogre who cuts 40% out of dodge and has accuracy so you may have down to 40% dodge against a Rat Ogre. You really need about 140 dodge is what I'm saying.

[swilhelm73]

Adding the wyrdstone horns doesn't change the math either way - because I'm presuming 3 successful dodges, side step is still better for the first 5 attacks.

It is a good point that other high level foes might have a high level accuracy stat, but I could always take a Mark of Agility on Masterwork Cloth Armor for another 40% dodge.

Overall my goal in a battle is to try and fight the enemy separately, and lure them out with henchmen...so I don't know that I'll have an enemy impressive and others all hitting my impressive with all their attacks in one round very often. Often I don't even end up fighting enemy Ogres/Rate Ogres/Chaos Spawn because the AI can't figure out how to move them around buildings.

[Bloodscape]

Mark of Agility for +20 and Mark of Evasion for +10 but ya.

Dodge isn't bad. It is still suggested that you max your Agility. Avoiding Rat Ogres is not ideal in the long run. The AI does take Black Hunger and use it.

[Master]

Originally posted by swilhelm73:

Adding the wyrdstone horns doesn't change the math either way - because I'm presuming 3 successful dodges, side step is still better for the first 5 attacks.

It is a good point that other high level foes might have a high level accuracy stat, but I could always take a Mark of Agility on Masterwork Cloth Armor for another 40% dodge.

Overall my goal in a battle is to try and fight the enemy separately, and lure them out with henchmen...so I don't know that I'll have an enemy impressive and others all hitting my impressive with all their attacks in one round very often. Often I don't even end up fighting enemy Ogres/Rate Ogres/Chaos Spawn because the AI can't figure out how to move them around buildings.

In Mordhiem plan for the worst, hope for the best. plan something and have a backup plan for it when it goes wrong.

It is preferable to max out agility since it adds to melee resist. Hit check comes in before dodge check, so if enemy fails the hit check its even better you dont get to use up dodge. Save the rune on armor for weapon skill. i found against AI shield units, with just natural max weapon skill my hit rate is sometimes only close to 80%. With weapon skill, you can pass hit check more reliably and still increase melee resist which in turn helps your impressive's defense.

Since chaos spawn cant disengage, never expect them not to pile on him

[Bloodscape]

Yes, max WS and Agility are both suggested.

We are not saying that you have to get a perfect defense. In fact, you can take only basic sidestep if you have your dodge high enough. Its really not suggested but if you feel ok on defense, you can if needed.

Weapon Skill will always be an issue. The spawn has to hit to be effective. As much as a Spawn can chew through the enemy, he will be held back by any misses.

That is why people suggest melee resist. You can max your WS and Agility but your armor is set to Agility if you dodge.

Think about it in terms of conflict. Taking the statement "Overall my goal in a battle is to try and fight the enemy separately, and lure them out with henchmen...so I don't know that I'll have an enemy impressive and others all hitting my impressive with all their attacks in one round very often."

This statement actually speaks more melee resist than dodge. The reason being that if a Spawn will chew through the enemy, he really doesn't need protection. The claim of dodge being better is then mute. While the melee resist helps the Spawn chew through the enemies.

Then there is the natural inclination of using the Spawn mutation to your advantage. Melee Resist gains a huge advantage to your particular Spawn because of mutation along with chance to hit.

Just letting you know why the "lesser" defense is appealing to us. Your Spawn really doesn't need to concentrate so much on defense but with both offense and defense at the same time, its more efficient. Especially with Wyrdstone Horns/Anticipation/Thousand Eyes combo to help with any prolonged engagements that he may have. Then again, it shouldn't happen often because your WS will chew through enemies.

Either way is fine, melee resist is just more natural to us with Wyrdstone Horns/Thousand Eyes.

[swilhelm73]

As a note I think I'll take Defensive Stance on the Dark Souls - since their weapon skill maxes at only 12 I don't think parry is the way to go with them.

[Bloodscape]

You need to raise the WS to 19 anyway so either can work. If your going 2-H you can add armor as a second layer to melee resist.