Dual Wielding Damage Penalty- Additive or multiplicative?

[JPLRocket]

I am trying to work the math on the value of fighting claws to my black skaven daredevils. My understanding is that the -25% damage is applied directly to base damage, rather than as part of the math calculation with factors like strength, daredevil, black hunger, war cry, etc. Essentially making it a multiplicative effect. I have noticed the -15% to Halberds seems to work this way, which has pushed me away from claws generally Sorcerer's curse and Armor Break are probably faster solutions to enemy armor.

If it were additive, though, running at least one claw-wielding daredevil might be viable, since there's so many other additive bonuses worked in that the net impact on damage would be comparatively small.

Has anyone confirmed that the dual wielding and two-handed penalties to damage are multiplicative rather than additive? Was searching and couldn't find concrete discussion.

[Kittenpaw]

Dual Wield only has a flat -25% penalty to damage. It never changes. Two handers accumulate. 100 - 85 - 70 - 55 etc. This is why Impressives or units being Ordered should always dual wield.

[JPLRocket]

Not the question.

The question is this:

Let's say a DWer does 100 base damage before the modification. He then uses daredevil (mastered). Let's assume his strength is zero.

Does he do:

1) 100* (1-.25+1.25)=200 damage

or

2) 100*.25 *(1+1.25)=168 damage

My understanding is 2.

[Kittenpaw]

Oh Lordy. We calculated this once.... digging through the Discord chat I found:

The 25% comes off the final grand number, post modifiers.

Also, armor absorption works on the beginning weapon damage number, pre-modification.

For example say your weapon does 80-100 damage, 50% Armor makes it 40-50 damage X multipliers (Daredevil, Frenzy etc).

With Dual Wield it’s weapon damage X multipliers then all reduced by 25%. So it’s actually (100*2.25) x.75

[JPLRocket]

Right, so both are multiplicative. I knew armor was, and I was pretty sure dual wield was too.

Good to have this confirmed. Non-impressive daredevils best stick to two handed weapons.

[Kittenpaw]

So two handers will be off that final number too as well I believe. The first hit would be maximum damage but then tapper dramatically.

[JPLRocket]

Yeah, I knew about the 2H taper. That much, at least, the game makes pretty obvious with damage numbers. Which is why I tend to use 2H only with builds that attack no more than twice (ie, chargers). I perhaps should've clarified that as "non-impressive daredevils who aren't being ordered." I agree with you that order can add so many attacks that DW is a far better option than 2H.

Kitten, followup for you or others in the know:

Does this multiplicative relationship also apply to modifiers such as the Halberd's +25% critical damage, Deep Wounds, etc? Or is that treated as additive as per strength?

I hadn't considered this before, but if crit damage modifiers are multiplicative the calculus for an optimized daredevil build shifts significantly.

[Bloodscape]

I have not tested but from the mechanics guide concerning critical hits:

(Max Weapon Damage)*(Damage Modifiers)*(Final Damage)

The final damage is defined as the decay on the weapon in the guide.

So the 2-H weapon will do its max damage times any damage modifiers (assuming critical damage modifier) times the decay modifier if I read it correctly.

This was back in the day though.

It looks like the modifiers are added together.

[JPLRocket]

Yeah, understand. However, Decay can also be a positive modifier, for example dropping enemy armor absorption to -10% results in a positive multiplier. I have confirmed this is not additive but multiplicative.

Basically the question is now, do critical damage modifiers like Brutal and Deep Wounds work the same as strength/daredevil/etc, or do they work the same as armor absorption (+/-) and tiring?

Also, since you brought up max weapon damage for the equation, do crits automatically shift the damage to the weapon's max damage? I was not aware of this...that'd be a huge buff to the "of slaying" enchantment if true.

[Kittenpaw]

I assume the Hammers and Deep Wounds damage adds rather than multiples, much like all the damage modifiers. Considering all other damage buffs stack in such a way. Rather than take your final damage, now add 25% more.

For example: 100 damage times lets say 225% more damage = 225 Damage
Crit adding like other buffs = 100 x 250% = 250 Damage
Crit damage stacking last = 100 x 225% = 225 X 1.25 = 282 Damage

I would say the 250 Damage version.

[Kittenpaw]

All crits do is bypass ALL armor. The massive damage spikes you tend to see are you hitting something with 50% Armor to suddenly hitting something with 0% armor.

[JPLRocket]

Gotcha. As you note, it'd be much more powerful (to the point of making one-shot attacks possible) if it were added multiplicatively as in the 282 damage version.

Thanks Kittenpaw. If you ever learn otherwise, please let me know! I am gonna start tracking my log carefully and will share if I ever get a crit damage number that is only possible that way. Halberd damage range is tight enough that this could happen. I haven't been paying close enough attention.

I understand the armor bypass. Generally before initiating my spike charges I debuff any target that has significant armor with Sorcerer's curse (and also armor break if needed), so I am mostly doing this to targets cut to 0% armor, effectively -10% armor vs a black skaven.

I *have* confirmed that the -10% armor bonus damage effect is multiplicative. Trying to determine if more such effects exist.

I was asking specifically for the deep wounds passive and the brutal weapon passive on halberds--not crits in general.