Skaven Warband - Leader

[Sin]

Hello,
I think it's pretty established that the Assassin Adept while not bad in itself is not a great warband leader and that most people obt for the Greyseer.
This turns up a question for me:
Is the Grey Seer worth the Leader slot if you don't want to use an Impressive? I see his added benefit of not having to join the melee and putting himself at risk, but him beeing a pure squishy caster makes me uncomfortable to be honest.

[Paranoia]

I tend to always replace Adept with Sorcerer, and seldom even bother with a Rat Ogre. Give him Warplock Pistols and Mastered Quick Reload, and he will make for a very good support Character. Being squishy would only matter if the enemy would get anywhere close to him.

Rule of thumb: do you need specifically even your Leader for burst damage? If the answer is a no, then you´ll propably want the Sorcerer instead.

[Penny Royal]

Nothing better IMO than having a Rat Ogre under complete control while warp-screwing everybody from a distance.

[Zzappruder]

Besides being a major damage dealer with his Warplock pistols, the sorcerer can also be a life saver with the spell Musk of Courage Mastered.
You can have skaven grunts failing their Fear and Terror rolls round after round, even when the source of that Fear or Terror is already killed. This spell fixes that for the whole warband. You can also use it to 'preload' the immunity before engaging vampires, thralls, possessed and impressives.

The spell Sorcerer's Curse Mastered is also a very handy tin opener.

[Bloodscape]

Sorcerer is over the top as a leader. The assassin, while able to build as a support, is rather selfish with supporting himself as his most effective builds. The sorcerer is extremely effective built as a support thus the leader role is natural and fitting.

For the sorcerer (in particular) the leader role is his strongest builds.

[Zzappruder]

And he's also a lot cuter! My kids always ask me where the "little goaty with the little cannons" is when I play Skaven.

[Reaver79]

There is no grey seers here.. That would be pretty imba. :P

[Scouten]

i like the assassin adept even though the greyseer imo is far more useful i built my adept to mass crit stack with a sword its rare that anyone is left not stunned when he engages them

[JPLRocket]

The Sorcerer can reach 14 AP with a tome of toughness and master adrenaline rush/introspection. This is *insanely* useful in concert with the leader-only order ability, in the warband that most effectively uses daredevil. Black hunger daredevils are a staple of mordheim warbands, and order is basically giving them another huge attack.

All of the Sorcerer's abilities are otherwise support-type anyway, which is what you want on someone who you need to keep from going down to avoid morale failures. The costs of losing a leader are much too high to use one that needs to actually enter combat to do his job like the Adept.

The Sorcerer plays perfectly to the leader role- assisting the group from a safe distance and making absolutely full use of the tools available to him. Plus, with master adrenaline rush he'll already be taking an 'appropriate' amount of damage per round. And dealing out 3-4x that amount with the free use of order it grants.

I don't even use musk of courage, myself. It's a fine spell, but I'd rather build him to support the daredevil heroes who are the real killing machines of the Skaven warband. Master mist, master wither, master curse--these all stack together to cut enemy defenses basically to 0 before they start taking those 200-300 damage hits from LGT Warpguards with dual maces or Black Skaven chargers with Halberds (because blacks can't get master adrenaline rush, don't have them dual wield!). Because I try to control alertness on my units to get all of them acting within 1-2 points of initiative, there's a decent number of points available for leadership, and pendants of courage cover the rest.

Plus, with 5' radius range, it means he has to actually be near the melee. The ideal location for a Sorcerer leader, IMO, is 30m above everything the action, accessible only by a jump that he can completely block when it's not his turn.

I think most view rat ogres as unusable if you don't have a mark of lucidity, and in any case 2 LGT Warpguards will hit harder than a rat ogre while also fitting better into the warband's initiative timing. Plus they can take/use items. It's never really been about the ogre, it's always been that the Sorcerer is innately a top-tier leader unit.

All this aside, because a Sorcerer is somewhat essential to a daredevil skaven warband's success, promoting him to leader provides a fresh hero slot for another daredevil. Adepts can't even BE daredevils--they can't reach 15 strength.

[Sin]

Originally posted by JPLRocket:

The Sorcerer can reach 14 AP with a tome of toughness and master adrenaline rush/introspection. This is *insanely* useful in concert with the leader-only order ability, in the warband that most effectively uses daredevil. Black hunger daredevils are a staple of mordheim warbands, and order is basically giving them another huge attack.

All of the Sorcerer's abilities are otherwise support-type anyway, which is what you want on someone who you need to keep from going down to avoid morale failures. The costs of losing a leader are much too high to use one that needs to actually enter combat to do his job like the Adept.

The Sorcerer plays perfectly to the leader role- assisting the group from a safe distance and making absolutely full use of the tools available to him. Plus, with master adrenaline rush he'll already be taking an 'appropriate' amount of damage per round. And dealing out 3-4x that amount with the free use of order it grants.

I don't even use musk of courage, myself. It's a fine spell, but I'd rather build him to support the daredevil heroes who are the real killing machines of the Skaven warband. Master mist, master wither, master curse--these all stack together to cut enemy defenses basically to 0 before they start taking those 200-300 damage hits from LGT Warpguards with dual maces or Black Skaven chargers with Halberds (because blacks can't get master adrenaline rush, don't have them dual wield!). Because I try to control alertness on my units to get all of them acting within 1-2 points of initiative, there's a decent number of points available for leadership, and pendants of courage cover the rest.

Plus, with 5' radius range, it means he has to actually be near the melee. The ideal location for a Sorcerer leader, IMO, is 30m above everything the action, accessible only by a jump that he can completely block when it's not his turn.

I think most view rat ogres as unusable if you don't have a mark of lucidity, and in any case 2 LGT Warpguards will hit harder than a rat ogre while also fitting better into the warband's initiative timing. Plus they can take/use items. It's never really been about the ogre, it's always been that the Sorcerer is innately a top-tier leader unit.

All this aside, because a Sorcerer is somewhat essential to a daredevil skaven warband's success, promoting him to leader provides a fresh hero slot for another daredevil. Adepts can't even BE daredevils--they can't reach 15 strength.

A nice rundown of your strategy, thanks for that, but might I ask what LGT warpguards are? I am familliar with warpguards, but I am very bad with acronyms.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Sin:

what LGT warpguards are? I am familliar with warpguards, but I am very bad with acronyms.

Lad's Got Talent. You know, the Int 3/M9 Skill trainable only from Reserves that makes a Henchman into a Hero.

[Sin]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Originally posted by Sin:

what LGT warpguards are? I am familliar with warpguards, but I am very bad with acronyms.

Lad's Got Talent. You know, the Int 3/M9 Skill trainable only from Reserves that makes a Henchman into a Hero.

Ah, I see. I was thinking about using 2 black skaven and 2 globadiers (one offensive one supportive), but a nother fighting hero might be nice aswell. I will have to experiment.
Thank you.

[JPLRocket]

The reason LGT Warpguards are popular is they have the toughness and strength required to be able to master all of the key skills for a high-damage daredevil setup. So in effect, they each can deal around 50% of the damage of a Rat Ogre.

But they can also:

1) Use items such as mordheim's maps and pick up items (incl wyrdstone without penalty)

2) Go places the ogre can't and move faster in general, potentially much faster w/map

3) Have more total HP, and not worry about headgear limitations.

4) Fit much better into tight-packed initiative lists, as the Rat Ogre is almost inevitably going to have 80+ initiative and many Skaven can't afford to pump alertness and risk having low leadership. When you can pack your whole warband within a 4-5 initiative count range, you can act unopposed.

You might see them built like this, which allows the Warpguard to activate daredevil/black hunger, make 3 attacks (one via adrenaline rush), activate exhaustion, delay, receive an order to make another attack, then potentially escape to a safe place having killed their target(s):

http://www.pyrospace.co.uk/mordheim/#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%3D%3D

Note that the LGT Warpguard daredevil is a very late game unit--you need a tome of strength to enable them to train their key skills. Black Skaven daredevils are also late-ish game, requiring a physical grimoire, but you get a couple of those from story missions, and they can be used without--just less effectively.

Credit to Kittenpaw and the other participants of the latest Mordheim Madness for teaching this to me. Hell of a lot of versatility in that unit.

[Kittenpaw]

In the Adept’s defense, you could turn him into a ranged build that headshots or takes red or blue pills. He can make a second line defender/Crit build that actually uses Order as well.

[Kittenpaw]

http://www.pyrospace.co.uk/mordheim/#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

Ranged Order dude

[Kittenpaw]

He can also make a solid Melee Resist unit, with some built in Crit ability. Crits of course offering +10 Melee Resist per Open Wound. The point in all of this is using a Sorcerer as a hero unit, where he is just as capable in a supporting role. In fact, even more so as he no longer needs to save red pills for Order.