Weeping Blades or Fighting Claws

[Warlord]

Which do you choose and why?

Trying to figure out which is superior for maximum damage output.

For crit builds are dual swords always required since it gives base + crit and even more with the havoc rune?

Posion isn't affected by armor, right?

[Paranoia]

I would only take Weeping Blades on low Ranks and/or when doing a Poison Build with Poison Expert. Since the Toughness Poison Resistance Buff, they are a tad bit unreliable otherwise.

[Kittenpaw]

Armor Perforation is pretty important in this game: claws.

And yes, dual havoc swords are best for critting.

[Kyoko]

for skaven it should be sword/dagger for crit

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Kyoko:

for skaven it should be sword/dagger for crit

Only if one is using art of silent death.

In case of a hench (verminkin and basic version), its only a 1% difference on crit %, over 2x swords of havoc.

In the case of heroes and mastered version, it most definately is the case, but its only the 4% better on crit %, than just using fighting claws of havoc which also get silent deaths extra. With mastered are of silent death, the fighting claws outdo the 2x swords, if all are havoc.

2x swords, is 16% added. With basic art, sword and dagger are 17%, fighting claws 13%. With mastered art, sword and dagger are 22%, while claws are 18%. (This all assuming havoc runes.)

[Reaver79]

Depends on your idea, poison themed WB i'd go Weeping blades, anything else Fighting claws.

[Kittenpaw]

So for the extremely expensive 6 skill point Mastery Art of Silent death you gain a mere +6% Crit chance and lower base damage with Sword and Dagger.

Meanwhile, Mastery Fatality adds +10%, Mastery Swarm +10%, Mastery Vital Strike is +20%, Mastery Underdog +15%, Mastery Assault +20%, and Mastery Surprise +20%.

Art of Silent Death has rather poor return on investment. Just grab those Dual Havoc Swords and any combo of the other skills listed. Armor bypass of Fighting Claws seems redundant since that is the entire point of a Crit: 100% armor bypass.....

[Kyoko]

I meant sword/dagger to maximize crit chance, to each there own on if they think its worth the investment in skills or not.

[Darth Cannabis]

True, and there are things to think about, with all the skills kitten mention as well.

The thing about silent death, is you get that bonus, on ALL ATTACKS, just for having the right weapon.

Fatality, only applies 2nd attack on, provided 1st hits. Underdog, requires being engaged with multiple enemies (which is often something one should avoid as squishy skaven), while swarm requires ganging up. Surprise, only applies to ambushes, while assault only applies to charges. Vital strikes costs 1 extra OP, and unless one is using OP increases on top of it, it is costing you that 3rd attack as hero, 2nd as hench.

In other words, all those situational bonuses, you won't have 100% of the time. Silent death, once you have, you will have 100% of the time, for having the weapon. Yes when it comes down to it, silent death is not that much of an increase, but its an always in use one without further investment in OP, or situation.

In my opinion it can work well on nighrunner and verminkin, but not something one wants to use with warpguards or others. If used, the idea is essentially to use with swarm and fatality, relying on all the natural crit, and a full number of attacks, and not to be used with vital strike (which would cost 1 extra OP as a called for crit attack).

[Kyoko]

Dagger also gives some dodge/parry bypass and some extra ambush damage. And yes, I use it on my verminkin myself, not warpguards.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Kyoko:

Dagger also gives some dodge/parry bypass and some extra ambush damage. And yes, I use it on my verminkin myself, not warpguards.

Yep, so long story short, while seemingly weak for skill investment, its a bonus to crit, that is always on, and due to dagger's parry/dodge bypass, more likely on the actual attack to hit (which is one aspect that makes it pair well with fatality).

Another way to think about it, is a way to keep the natural crit rate up, when using a dagger over sword, to help insure the attack hitting.

[Kittenpaw]

x3 Vital strikes is pretty easy, just get Mastery Adrenaline Rush.

Dagger guarantees 6% more crit chance all the time, true. It also guarantees less over-all damage as well. 6 Skill Point investment for less damage and a 6% crit chance?? Meh.

Want 6% more chance to crit? Take a ranged unit with Sharpshooter and a Bow of Misfortune.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Kittenpaw:

x3 Vital strikes is pretty easy, just get Mastery Adrenaline Rush.

Dagger guarantees 6% more crit chance all the time, true. It also guarantees less over-all damage as well. 6 Skill Point investment for less damage and a 6% crit chance?? Meh.

Want 6% more chance to crit? Take a ranged unit with Sharpshooter and a Bow of Misfortune.

What relevance does sharpshooter and a bow of misfortune have, in any way shape or form, when we are discussing melee options on skaven who can't even use bow?

I understand why you don't like it, it seems too costly for too little when looking at crit alone. For pure or directed crit, there are better options. For natural good hits with solid crit thou, it is a solid base.

Less overall damage depends on number of attacks that actually hit. Do not forget about the dodge/parry bypass of dagger. Any time double sword is dodged or parried, while sword and dagger isn't closes the gap on overall damage. This is why it works well with fatality. Your more likely to hit that 1st attack, so you can get the even more crit on the 2nd.

So saying it guarantees less overall damage is not something you can definitively say. It has less base damage yes, but a weapon likely to hit more has to have that eventuality considered as well. That is why some of us skaven lovers like the skill and how it fits into skaven builds overall. Its not just about getting the crit, but about making sure the attack hits, along with, decent crit.

I still only reccomend it for verminkin (in hench case we are talking a mere 2 point investment and 1% better than 2x swords, and just another passive amongst many other basic level skills), or nightrunner (then its more an issue of high crit with claws, while insuring climb advatnages in my case, thou I do see why the sword and dagger may be liked by others).

[Kittenpaw]

Well, I would never reccomend it, it's one of those bad skills mixed into the game, like Veteran.