How to beat Undead AI ?

[Arewilia]

Hi, Undead are OP as f*ck, I lose every game i play against them whatever is the difficulty, the mission and the lvl of my warband/warriors, while I don't encounter any problems fighting other factions... Any tips to rekt those unbalanced undead, I just losed my sixth WB against them...

[Arewilia]

Messaggio originale di Greybush:

Messaggio originale di Explo-blazer:

I had a purple GS on my Executioner, so Crypt Horror probably had non-white GH :/

Then you're kind of playing with fire, really.
The more you increase your rating, the more the AI will too. At Rank 10, that doesn't matter (because it can't do anything more than equip all units in enchanted Purple gear), but at low ranks it means an increasingly significant difference in their power. So at Deadly, 1 Purple item for you can mean 3 Purple items for them. And that can really hurt!
Though it's not guaranteed that the Impressive (or any AI unit) had Purple gear, based on you having one or two Purples. The AI won't match you exactly, it will just randomly distribute the extra rating (so it might aswell be 2 Blues instead of 1 Purple).

Thanks for the information !
So, at low ranks it is better to equip everyone with white stuff ?

[crimsonsun]

70ish damage sounds like brutal too me, that's about what I've come to expect from crypt horrors starting out on brutal difficulty.

I'm not really sure what's being asked for in this thread, sounds like a nerf to Terror or to give Vampires something other than Terror as there's initial skill. Terror can't be nerfed without huge knock on effects across other game aspects so that's out and the Vampire isn't that great already as Leaders go and in fact I'd consider the Undead one of the weaker Warbands for a whole multitude of reasons to do with poor synergies amongst living and Undead Heroes, it can also have its biggest asset hard countered in ways too numerous to count (Psychology) and lets be honest Thralls without fear working are crap, the Vampire isn't much cop even with Terror, the Dreg looks like it has so much potential but it really falls short of the mark lacking the speed to be an effective striker, leaving archer and parry guy the later of which is just not needed as that's what Thralls do the former is lacking without a supporting passive native or acquirable warband skill and I while I like the theme of its innate skill it does nothing for the fighter itself which would be fine on a henchman but is terrible on a Hero. The Crypt Horror uses weapons, has no Armour, no innate abilities (not even disease or poison attacks which in the lore it should have along with regenerate) beyond Terror, its bland and very easily negated. A Rat Ogre or Spawn is a much bigger concern than a crypt horror, you actually have to adapt your tactics to counter them.

Ignoring the above, what I'm wondering is why are there issues with Undead yet no such issues with the Cult of the Possessed. I realise they don't have Fear/Terror unlocked at the start but the discussion has mentioned lvl5 starting warband at creation many times (its how I'll start pretty much any new warband from now on) and that its Crypt Horrors that are wiping out there Warband. If terror is unbalanced early game then the Cult should be causing as many problems as the Undead for Warband's to deal with at low rank surely?

Finally I will admit that Undead are a horrible match up for some previously very strong Skaven builds, but I don't think that's ever been disputed. However Rat Ogres are much better than crypt horrors if you mitigate stupidity and I think its more the case of how they are being used over anything else, especially since it was mentioned that a Rat Ogre was used to perform an ambush (I mean really!!!, Ambush is something that should be the sole province of henchman and even then only used to cover behind your front line so you can't be pulled into trouble).

[Greybush]

Messaggio originale di Explo-blazer:

Messaggio originale di Greybush:

Then you're kind of playing with fire, really.
The more you increase your rating, the more the AI will too. At Rank 10, that doesn't matter (because it can't do anything more than equip all units in enchanted Purple gear), but at low ranks it means an increasingly significant difference in their power. So at Deadly, 1 Purple item for you can mean 3 Purple items for them. And that can really hurt!
Though it's not guaranteed that the Impressive (or any AI unit) had Purple gear, based on you having one or two Purples. The AI won't match you exactly, it will just randomly distribute the extra rating (so it might aswell be 2 Blues instead of 1 Purple).

Thanks for the information !
So, at low ranks it is better to equip everyone with white stuff ?

That depends.
On the one hand, the AI will have worse gear. But then so will you.
It's really more that the difficulty keeps up with you as you upgrade than it just getting harder.
A 50 dmg hit against white Light Armour (10%) will only be reduced to 45.
But a 65 dmg hit against purple Light Armour (30%) will also be reduced to 45.
So if you don't mind risking heavy hits or heavy defense, it's no problem.

[kappahun]

I don't think AI can be OP with any setup. AI is stupid. You can wait, until the enemy warband is dispersed, and have 1-2 rounds to fight them separeted. You give them some ranged/magic loving, and gang up to beat them with unwavering or high terror resist troops.

It would be a interesting alternative, if you could prepare for the WB you will face with dedicated characters and gear, but that would simply be too easy in a already easy game.

[Leinadnesredna]

Messaggio originale di Greybush:

Messaggio originale di Leinadnesredna:

1. got a bad habit of leaving the computer on and in game without actually playing

2. i don´t have a problem with undead anymore

3. being able to look at something from another persons perspective is an awesome ability to have and if you think that Uddhave have problems with Undead you are not reading the posts and just replying "your a bad player" instead of actual arguments.

4. so far Uddhave have been only been advocating for giving new players more information and a better understanding of what they will have to deal with and i´m finding it Odd that the thought of more information to new players are met with ANY hostility at all.

5.new players = more Mordheim = WIN !

1: Yeah, I'm sure you racked up hundreds of hours like that...

3: REALLY??? Well, ♥♥♥♥ me sideways, that's new and interesting information that I never could have imagined!! Holy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, that changes everything!!!
Or the non-sarcastic reply: Yeah, thanks for the advice. Maybe you should follow your own advice and try to see it from a less holier-than-thou point. Like maybe consider that you don't have a problem with UD anymore because you stopped doing the same thing you did with other warbands, maybe...? Or your units were built in a way that made them vulnerable to UD (like protecting against Magic/Poison/Crits/Whatever and ignoring LD)?
And while you're at it, follow your own advice about reading too:

yes that gives me a lot of ingame hours, i work night and play a game when i get home before i´m tired enough to sleep, and every time that happens its basically running until i´m going to work again since i do this on days where i have nothing planned = 16 or so hours every time but thats is besides the point how much i have played as my point was just because you don't have a problem with something anymore you can still be able to see an existing problem, and yes i have learned to play against them but that does not help new players now does it ?

Messaggio originale di Greybush:

Messaggio originale di Leinadnesredna:

I said it was not possible at that stage and you told me it was i just needed runes skills and spells.

the problem exist at level 0

You're right, you can't build against it from the start with runes and spells (or Pendants, unless you get a few in the shop).
But you can use Ranged, and for some warbands use Psy immune units. And if you have access to Heavy Armour (and maybe Shield, you can bring a tank to simply lock down the Vamp while the rest of your units either shoot him or kill the rest of the warband (assuming it's not only Zombie henchmen).

But his point in the last comment was that you can't reliably build against anything from the start. A Sisters warband can't really build against Ranged, for example.

Well you missed the part where he first told me it was possible to build against it at level 0 and then when i asked me to show me told me it was not posible.

[Reaver79]

Messaggio originale di Explo-blazer:

Messaggio originale di Greybush:

Then you're kind of playing with fire, really.
The more you increase your rating, the more the AI will too. At Rank 10, that doesn't matter (because it can't do anything more than equip all units in enchanted Purple gear), but at low ranks it means an increasingly significant difference in their power. So at Deadly, 1 Purple item for you can mean 3 Purple items for them. And that can really hurt!
Though it's not guaranteed that the Impressive (or any AI unit) had Purple gear, based on you having one or two Purples. The AI won't match you exactly, it will just randomly distribute the extra rating (so it might aswell be 2 Blues instead of 1 Purple).

Thanks for the information !
So, at low ranks it is better to equip everyone with white stuff ?

Normal/hard it wont matter too much play brutal/deadly and yes your giving the enemy a significant damage boost and if that impressive is running around with purple weapons amongst your lev0 warriors he's gonna be haveing the time of his life..

[miniaaar]

I just started a new WH warband. I'm using the start at level 5 option so that I can use the Executioner right away.

Undead aren't really an issue I found. Templar Knight is great to tank the Fear/Terror units, WH captain shoots well and soften the heroes/leader Flagellants/Executioner are usually enough to finish the job.

The Crypt Horror is tough indeed, but I find that using a combination of a sacrificial flagellant and using delay on my Executioner so that he plays after the CH in the first turn, but before in the next one helps a lot. I managed 50% of the time to save the poor flagellant by disengaging, and the Executioner can absorb one turn of Crypt Horror bashing before finishing it off the next turn (or other units can still help).

It's true that witch hunters are probably the most anti-undead warband though. If you start at rank 0, the Captain shoots, the templar tanks and the Flagellants charge the Vamp quite easily. Terror has no impact at all in the end. :)

[[-TWR-]tajl]

Messaggio originale di Reaver79:

Messaggio originale di Explo-blazer:

Thanks for the information !
So, at low ranks it is better to equip everyone with white stuff ?

Normal/hard it wont matter too much play brutal/deadly and yes your giving the enemy a significant damage boost and if that impressive is running around with purple weapons amongst your lev0 warriors he's gonna be haveing the time of his life..

On the other hand if your impressive have purple weapon he is going to kill that enemy impressive quicker and if you have white weapon while enemy happens to have purple and few one armed hencman or something like that to compensate. Then you would be really screved.

[Greybush]

Messaggio originale di Leinadnesredna:

Messaggio originale di Greybush:

You're right, you can't build against it from the start with runes and spells (or Pendants, unless you get a few in the shop).
But you can use Ranged, and for some warbands use Psy immune units. And if you have access to Heavy Armour (and maybe Shield, you can bring a tank to simply lock down the Vamp while the rest of your units either shoot him or kill the rest of the warband (assuming it's not only Zombie henchmen).

But his point in the last comment was that you can't reliably build against anything from the start. A Sisters warband can't really build against Ranged, for example.

Well you missed the part where he first told me it was possible to build against it at level 0 and then when i asked me to show me told me it was not posible.

No, I caught that part too.
That's why I included things youcan actually do to counter UD from day 1.
You can't build specifically against UD (ignoring WH and Cult with Psy immune units, ofc), but you can build (and play) your warband enough to reduce their advantages, just like other things like Heavy Armour, Magic, or high Ini/Movement.

[Reaver79]

Problem is really only for spawn to compete 2 purple armbands can be hard to come by where as a purple 2hander or a couple of almost any type of 1handers..

Messaggio originale di -TWR-tajl:

Messaggio originale di Reaver79:

Normal/hard it wont matter too much play brutal/deadly and yes your giving the enemy a significant damage boost and if that impressive is running around with purple weapons amongst your lev0 warriors he's gonna be haveing the time of his life..

On the other hand if your impressive have purple weapon he is going to kill that enemy impressive quicker and if you have white weapon while enemy happens to have purple and few one armed hencman or something like that to compensate. Then you would be really screved.

Yes but if you got purple so can he, saying that your purple is on your impressive makes it possible for you to compete but again brutal/deadly is a 30-45% diffrence. At level0 thats a huge diffrence not to mention the extra hp diffrence as well its a double penalty/bonus and at that point.

[Penny Royal]

This thread is out of control.

[Leinadnesredna]

Messaggio originale di Greybush:

Messaggio originale di Leinadnesredna:

Well you missed the part where he first told me it was possible to build against it at level 0 and then when i asked me to show me told me it was not posible.

No, I caught that part too.
That's why I included things youcan actually do to counter UD from day 1.
You can't build specifically against UD (ignoring WH and Cult with Psy immune units, ofc), but you can build (and play) your warband enough to reduce their advantages, just like other things like Heavy Armour, Magic, or high Ini/Movement.

True enough thats stuff you have to learn and a new player need time to learn or help but the terror effect is much worse then the rest you just mentioned that one need to think about.

if you start ANY new warband and just jump into a game with the basis setup 2/1 on the henchmen just to see how the stuff you got works before making changes, then you will still have a fairly good chance against anything but undead and thats the krux of it.

Now when you make a new warband you build it against UD or get ready to bend over.

And it might be they want it hard but then they need to Up the other in AI difficulty cause right now its 5x Cheesecake and 1x mission impossible.

[crimsonsun]

Messaggio originale di Leinadnesredna:

Messaggio originale di Greybush:

No, I caught that part too.
That's why I included things youcan actually do to counter UD from day 1.
You can't build specifically against UD (ignoring WH and Cult with Psy immune units, ofc), but you can build (and play) your warband enough to reduce their advantages, just like other things like Heavy Armour, Magic, or high Ini/Movement.

True enough thats stuff you have to learn and a new player need time to learn or help but the terror effect is much worse then the rest you just mentioned that one need to think about.

if you start ANY new warband and just jump into a game with the basis setup 2/1 on the henchmen just to see how the stuff you got works before making changes, then you will still have a fairly good chance against anything but undead and thats the krux of it.

Now when you make a new warband you build it against UD or get ready to bend over.

And it might be they want it hard but then they need to Up the other in AI difficulty cause right now its 5x Cheesecake and 1x mission impossible.

I'm sorry but I simply don't agree, I would argue that of all Warbands its the Cult of the Possessed that require the most adaption in terms of tactics. They bring Fear, they bring Terror, but most importantly they bring multiple sources of Parry Ignore that will wreck you in the wrong situation or following a poor deployment.

In PvP if played at high Rank every warband needs adapting too because they all require different things to combat them. I love my Rat's for example, but I'm not very good with them if I'm honest with myself, as a result the only match up's in PvP I do really well at when using Rats is verses Rats, this is because regardless of my rather disjointed tactical ability using them my builds remain strong and are often the deciding factor, against other warbands my lack of skill using them allows my enemies to keep the battle to where they are stronger leaving me rather out played. Basically if you don't adapt and fight the enemy where your warband is stronger you get crushed, which kinda leads on the my final comment below.

I have been for a long time got the impression that new players coming in aren't learning the game to the same level as players were forced to in early access. Early access was pretty much all about PvP and that has so a few massive advantages over learning against the AI. The first is that most opponents used some kinda voice chat, so you'd discuss builds, chat to the other guy and see what you were missing ( I will mention its this chatting that often leads to my rather medicore PvP results but I wouldn't change it at all). The other aspects are to do with how the AI must cheat and how it rarely forces a player to adapt or alter there tactics. The AI can't do ranged Warbands, the only real threat AI casters ever offer is in Curse generation, the AI has boosted damage output and health to cope with its inability to utilise the same tools the player has, which often doesn't give a good picture of what the actual strengths and weaknesses of a Warband are as they all cause more damage and have more health than you. The AI doesn't use the Inituative for tactical advantage, nor does it synergise attacks or abilities, it can't use consumables effectively and does nothing to mitigate or remove negative effects. Most importantly the AI will let you off the hook and this is something I look out for in my games because I know another player won't let me escape when I make a mistake because this shows me where I need to improve. Personally I feel its this that leads to new players not really learning or being forced to adapt so any change to the standard is a massive shock and a giant step in difficulty. It's not the games suddenly more difficult, its the skill and practise at adapting that's just not been needed.

As for a fix, as has been said above, information and I'd really love the actual mechanics to be accessable in game via the game, because when I was a new player my biggest issues all came from the mechanics not being explained or viewable.

[Leinadnesredna]

Messaggio originale di crimsonsun:

Messaggio originale di Leinadnesredna:

True enough thats stuff you have to learn and a new player need time to learn or help but the terror effect is much worse then the rest you just mentioned that one need to think about.

if you start ANY new warband and just jump into a game with the basis setup 2/1 on the henchmen just to see how the stuff you got works before making changes, then you will still have a fairly good chance against anything but undead and thats the krux of it.

Now when you make a new warband you build it against UD or get ready to bend over.

And it might be they want it hard but then they need to Up the other in AI difficulty cause right now its 5x Cheesecake and 1x mission impossible.

I'm sorry but I simply don't agree, I would argue that of all Warbands its the Cult of the Possessed that require the most adaption in terms of tactics. They bring Fear, they bring Terror, but most importantly they bring multiple sources of Parry Ignore that will wreck you in the wrong situation or following a poor deployment.

In PvP if played at high Rank every warband needs adapting too because they all require different things to combat them. I love my Rat's for example, but I'm not very good with them if I'm honest with myself, as a result the only match up's in PvP I do really well at when using Rats is verses Rats, this is because regardless of my rather disjointed tactical ability using them my builds remain strong and are often the deciding factor, against other warbands my lack of skill using them allows my enemies to keep the battle to where they are stronger leaving me rather out played. Basically if you don't adapt and fight the enemy where your warband is stronger you get crushed, which kinda leads on the my final comment below.

I have been for a long time got the impression that new players coming in aren't learning the game to the same level as players were forced to in early access. Early access was pretty much all about PvP and that has so a few massive advantages over learning against the AI. The first is that most opponents used some kinda voice chat, so you'd discuss builds, chat to the other guy and see what you were missing ( I will mention its this chatting that often leads to my rather medicore PvP results but I wouldn't change it at all). The other aspects are to do with how the AI must cheat and how it rarely forces a player to adapt or alter there tactics. The AI can't do ranged Warbands, the only real threat AI casters ever offer is in Curse generation, the AI has boosted damage output and health to cope with its inability to utilise the same tools the player has, which often doesn't give a good picture of what the actual strengths and weaknesses of a Warband are as they all cause more damage and have more health than you. The AI doesn't use the Inituative for tactical advantage, nor does it synergise attacks or abilities, it can't use consumables effectively and does nothing to mitigate or remove negative effects. Most importantly the AI will let you off the hook and this is something I look out for in my games because I know another player won't let me escape when I make a mistake because this shows me where I need to improve. Personally I feel its this that leads to new players not really learning or being forced to adapt so any change to the standard is a massive shock and a giant step in difficulty. It's not the games suddenly more difficult, its the skill and practise at adapting that's just not been needed.

As for a fix, as has been said above, information and I'd really love the actual mechanics to be accessable in game via the game, because when I was a new player my biggest issues all came from the mechanics not being explained or viewable.

This is very true but i was still talking about level 0 warbands where UD brings terror.

[Scar Glamour]

I leveled a dozen warbands playing against Undead, and they are some of the easiest enemies, way less terrifying than Chaos or Witch Hunters at starting levels.

Terror/fear rarely affect more than 1 unit at a time, and if that unit is a hero, the effects don't last long. Their henchmen are all unarmored, Necromancer is a joke, so is the Dreg. Thrall and Vampire are nothing spectacular, just a little bit tougher than your regular heroes.

I have also levelled a few Undead warbands, and I cannot remember a single fight where Terror would have been the deciding factor.