Ranking the tanks

[Lampros]

Since i am a melee guy, I thought I would open this up for a dicussion. Since I've primarily played the Mercs to end-game - and I primarily tank with Champions - I am not going to have anything to contribute to the rankings here.

Still, I keep hearing folks say that Champions are the best tanks, and I am not sure whether I would come to this conclusion so readily. I understand that Adaptable Defense can potentially net you 12 extra Melee Resistance per turn - and even more if he has a Web of Steel/Swift Counter build or Captains Ordering him nonstop. But survivability alone is not the exclusive requirement of a "tank." In MMORPG parlance, it's more important to actually grab and maintain "aggro," and on paper it looks like other tanks can do this better. I find the Champion's low potential Initiative rather crippling in terms of grabbing aggro; and his greater vulnerability to psychology test (he is not immune to psychology like the Templar Knight, and he does not have faction immunity spells that the Sister Superior possesses) means that he cannot always maintain aggro either. The Sister Superior also has a tool that outright reduces damage for all - Righteous Fury - not just the tank himself/herself.

Of course, I think the Champion is a remarkable melee combatant overall, but is he a tad bit over-rated as a tank? Anyways, how would everyone actually rank the main tanks?

[Paranoia]

Mutant with the right Mutations may be the best in my opinion, but really depends on the Mutations.
Doomweaver is a Mushroom of Rock-Paper-Scissors. How does one rate a Character who goes in the middle of enemies to implode as a Tank?

Skaven as a whole work as Tanks in presense of Warp Poison.

Sisters have a certain Skill that is really good for Tanking, unless against a proper Melee Resist Tank. Plus a Spell that makes them very hard to hit.

Captain and Witch Hunter Captain are more of aggressive Tanks.

Undead Zombies depend on Necromancers. As do the Vampires and Thralls if they want to be reliable with Fear and Terror. But they get really high Crit Resist.

Templar Knight I can´t rate because I didn´t use them. But Armour of Righteousness is cheese. :)

All in all, rating Tanks accross Warbands is really hard because they´re context depedant.
I´d rate Champion the best. Not only because of the Default Skill, but because of the absurd Crit Resist they get while not being Necromancer-dependant like Undead.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Mutant with the right Mutations may be the best in my opinion, but really depends on the Mutations.

Doesn't a Mutant tank build usually go with a body Mutation though? That means you have to go cloth, and even light armor makes me nervous on a dedicated tank!

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Sisters have a certain Skill that is really good for Tanking, unless against a proper Melee Resist Tank. Plus a Spell that makes them very hard to hit.

On paper Sister Superior looks amazing with Righteous Fury and Heart of Gryphon support from a caster. But I have yet to play the Sisters to high Rank so I am not there yet.

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Templar Knight I can´t rate because I didn´t use them. But Armour of Righteousness is cheese. :)

How much of a negative is the inability to disengage on a tank? I recall some folks saying that this is a big negative in the context of the discussion of a Darksoul who was promoted to be a main tank. But the dude has heavy armor? Or is the negative linked to not the tank's own survival but the ability to disengage to help someone else survive?

Originally posted by Paranoia:

All in all, rating Tanks accross Warbands is really hard because they´re context depedant.
I´d rate Champion the best. Not only because of the Default Skill, but because of the absurd Crit Resist they get while not being Necromancer-dependant like Undead.

I love Champions, but I think they are better as a hybrid tank/damage dealers than straight tanks, because of the issues I brought up in the first post.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Lampros:

How much of a negative is the inability to disengage on a tank? I recall some folks saying that this is a big negative in the context of the discussion of a Darksoul who was promoted to be a main tank. But the dude has heavy armor? Or is the negative linked to not the tank's own survival but the ability to disengage to help someone else survive?

A little bit of Column A, a little bit of column B.

He really doesn´t need to Disengage when Warrior Priest is around, but one must make sure that he is in combat where he needs to be. He is definitely more Tanky than Dark Soul. And if the enemy is having two Characters against him, especially if they can´t Disengage and he can be healed, he is golden.
It is a bit annoying that he is just straight-up Immune to Fear and Terror, because Serenity would look good on him.

Originally posted by Lampros:

I love Champions, but I think they are better as a hybrid tank/damage dealers than straight tanks, because of the issues I brought up in the first post.

I used mine with Halberds and back-up Shields. They didn´t often need all that survival, and extra damage is nice. Could use Great Axes as well, if one compromises survival a bit more.

[FCauldron]

I personally preffer the Templar knight, his passive + inmunities allow him to hold 2-3 units almost indefinately, AND as you don't "have" to use many leadership points you could better distribute mental stats.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by FCauldron:

you don't "have" to use many leadership points you could better distribute mental stats.

True.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

I used mine with Halberds and back-up Shields. They didn´t often need all that survival, and extra damage is nice. Could use Great Axes as well, if one compromises survival a bit more.

I run two Champions: A pure tank with Anticipation and even Feint and a hybrid tank/damage dealer with Vital Strike, Fatality and of course no Feint. I honestly cannot say at this point I see much the difference between the two. On the tanking front, I don't see the "tank" tanking better, though with the caveat that I have not played much against Impressives and daemons - where the difference should show, if it exists. On the damage front, they seem to do the same, though this may be because I only use Vital Strike once per turn. Should I do 3 Vital Strike swings instead?

[Lampros]

Originally posted by FCauldron:

I personally preffer the Templar knight, his passive + inmunities allow him to hold 2-3 units almost indefinatelly, AND as you don't "have" to use many leadership points you could better distribute mental stats.

Yup. The second point is an absolutely huge one that I didn't specifically mention but kind of implied. The Templar Knight can have pretty good Initiative for a heavy armor user.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Should I do 3 Vital Strike swings instead?

That is really dependent on the enemy´s Crit Resist and how hard they are to Stun and how useful Critting them is (hard to hit? Hit like a truck? etc.).
If the enemy is not hard to damage and the Crit Chances are low, I´d just bash him to death.
If Stunning him is really valuable for survival of others or increasing chances of killing him, Vital Strikes.

[uddhava]

Originally posted by FCauldron:

I personally preffer the Templar knight, his passive + inmunities allow him to hold 2-3 units almost indefinately, AND as you don't "have" to use many leadership points you could better distribute mental stats.

Goodpoint here on the Knight. Main drawback on the Champ (even tho I'm a biased Merc player) is that you have to build him for Psy orfull melee resist. And even if you go for the latter route he needs back for master awareness. The Knight can put points in intell for stun resist or alertness for awareness without sacrifcing LD. That being said, the champs innate skill combined with anticipation makes him so good I'd still rate him first keeing in mind that I'm a biased merc player :)

And for me tanking does mean holding down an enemy on your terms, i.e. being able to disengage is pretty vital. I once had an ambush which completely bombed (DEadly) because the knight got stuck and couldnt reposition (while everyone else had, stupid mistake my side) which led to a rescue operation which failed which led to basicaly my only loss with my WH band. Stupid non-disengaging.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by uddhava:

Main drawback on the Champ (even tho I'm a biased Merc player) is that you have to build him for Psy orfull melee resist. And even if you go for the latter route he needs back for master awareness.

I often compromised that with Leadership and Serenity. If I am against one (not Fear nor Terror), I seldom need that much Melee Resist, and against many, one All Alone test and I´m golden.

[FCauldron]

True, if he could disengage it would be OP.
On normal conditions with other figters I get paranoid (no pun intended) of all alone but with this guy I want them to swarm him to activate his passive... all this is agains the AI so its just for fun ;)

[Lampros]

Originally posted by uddhava:

Goodpoint here on the Knight. Main drawback on the Champ (even tho I'm a biased Merc player) is that you have to build him for Psy orfull melee resist. And even if you go for the latter route he needs back for master awareness. The Knight can put points in intell for stun resist or alertness for awareness without sacrifcing LD. That being said, the champs innate skill combined with anticipation makes him so good I'd still rate him first keeing in mind that I'm a biased merc player :)

Is it worthwhile to go even Awareness (Basic) on Champion - muchless Master? It seems like the Champion lacks Mental Attribute points even with the aid of a grimoire; so I prefer going the Anticipation route instead. Otherwise, both the Champion's Initiative and Leadership will be abysmal.

[Lampros]

Anyways, right now my biggest dilemma on the Champion main tank is whether to get the Courage helmet Rune for 95 percent All-Alone pass or get the Celerity Rune for 20 extra Initiative. I am so conflicted.

[Paranoia]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Champion's Initiative

Awareness Mastery is Alertness 15, his Initiative will be fine.
And Leadership being low only means that one has to deploy him with care and occasional support against All Alone.

Originally posted by Lampros:

Anyways, right now my biggest dilemma on the Champion main tank is whether to get the Courage helmet Rune for 95 percent All-Alone pass or get the Celerity Rune for 20 extra Initiative. I am so conflicted.

You should compare him to the rest of your Warband, and ask which position on the Initiative ladder is more convenient more often.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Paranoia:

Awareness Mastery is Alertness 15, his Initiative will be fine.

Yup. I misspoke. It's just Leadership that will suffer - and massively. (Intelligence, too, but I do not care for the purpose of this discussion.)

Originally posted by Paranoia:

You should compare him to the rest of your Warband, and ask which position on the Initiative ladder is more convenient more often.

He's at 38 without Celerity Rune - which seems to me very low (but then the operative issue is whether it is worse to be at 38 Initiative or 75 percent All Alone chance). 58 with Celerity Rune obviously. The fastest guy in my band is either Captain or Youngblood, both in the 70s. The archers are in the 50s, and the henchmen melees are all around 30s, just like the Champion. So they, too, face the same helmet Rune dilemma: Celerity or Courage?