Why does Vanguardian line exist?

[n13e86]

And how are you supposed to keep this alive for the effect to work?
Is it even supposed to?
I even took a look at the rest of the line - it doesn't get much better in terms of survivability.

[Nordos/atord]

you can technically have your killfloor on the second floor, and use some self-damaging spells to trigger it, but I agree. The line feels underwhelming, since her stats are too low for her to block effectively. . . You need something else (armor, reanimate, ...) to prevent her death

[n13e86]

Originally posted by Nordos/atord:

you can technically have your killfloor on the second floor, and use some self-damaging spells to trigger it, but I agree. The line feels underwhelming, since her stats are too low for her to block effectively. . . You need something else (armor, reanimate, ...) to prevent her death

Damaging spells option is ineffective:
At the start of the game, you have exactly two units on the floor - her and another one.
Using Just Cause gives one of them 2 Valor. Using Fireblast (or whatever it's called, 3 damage demon thing) gives both 1 Valor (effect of Talos' useless card Inspire), and takes 3hp from Fel.
Yes, she gives 1 Valor on Revenge. And while it does get high enough on Vanguardian III (4 Valor on Revenge), getting there will deprive you of momentum. She is going to die in almost every battle, unless she's not using the only benefit of picking this line.

[Nordos/atord]

Originally posted by n13e86:

Originally posted by Nordos/atord:

you can technically have your killfloor on the second floor, and use some self-damaging spells to trigger it, but I agree. The line feels underwhelming, since her stats are too low for her to block effectively. . . You need something else (armor, reanimate, ...) to prevent her death

Damaging spells option is ineffective:
At the start of the game, you have exactly two units on the floor - her and another one.
Using Just Cause gives one of them 2 Valor. Using Fireblast (or whatever it's called, 3 damage demon thing) gives both 1 Valor (effect of Talos' useless card Inspire), and takes 3hp from Fel.
Yes, she gives 1 Valor on Revenge. And while it does get high enough on Vanguardian III (4 Valor on Revenge), getting there will deprive you of momentum. She is going to die in almost every battle, unless she's not using the only benefit of picking this line.

in the early floors, she can actually tank enough. Its about ring 4-5 where it gets dangerous for her when the fight starts, so I didn't mean T1 upgrade with my comment

[n13e86]

Originally posted by Nordos/atord:

in the early floors, she can actually tank enough. Its about ring 4-5 where it gets dangerous for her when the fight starts, so I didn't mean T1 upgrade with my comment

That makes more sense.
Still, it's a lot of effort for what appears to be less reward.
It seems to be intended as an offensive option - since the only thing Valor does for the backline is bonus damage. But even in this regard, both of the other options are superior.

[Shovel Priest]

The Banished are really good at overstuffing floors. Get three or four solid units behind Fel using Ascend, Descend, or Flight, order them as desired with Just Cause, then the AoE Valor stacks all those units' attack power while it also gives her Firebrand-esque tanking capabilities.

Probably don't do this against Corruption Seraph for multiple reasons, but having a really big floor still does a lot of good work if you have AoE buffs like Vanguard Fel does passively. Maybe she needs a little help to get the initial Valor built up so the first few waves don't kill her, but there are a lot of spell solutions for that you can find before the enemy waves start to really threaten her.

[kioro-djirane]

Originally posted by n13e86:

That makes more sense.
Still, it's a lot of effort for what appears to be less reward.
It seems to be intended as an offensive option - since the only thing Valor does for the backline is bonus damage. But even in this regard, both of the other options are superior.

She also does ramp up Valor for her own defensive ability. But I do think it's best paired with the upgrade that scale Valor on Shift as first upgrade. Having a flat Valor start make it more "reliable" if you want her to tank and gain as much from her Vengeance trigger. That being said, the first turn need to be set up by either having a Intrinsic spell that protect her OR set up a sacrificial lamb up front to tank & die in the first wave.

Overall I rarely go tier 3 on her valor scaling path anyway as I found the payoff a bit underwhelming but I do prefer Savior over Vanguardian. But as you don't have a choice for the second upgrade if you want to branch out, I take whatever appear.

But I agree that Vangardian III seems impossible by itself at Conv. 10 as early wave are quite deadly. You need strong spell that give a bunch of Reanimate/Damage Shield/Flat Armor. Sap could also work but it's even trickier to set up.

[Gabriot]

Spoiler warning (don’t read if still unlocking everything):


I think it works better with some of the mt1 clans. Hellhorned would be a good example, you have additional ascend cards to overstack a floor, starter like torch easily helps extra revenge procs, armor cards to help get the initial survivability up, bonus points for branding rite which also procs revenge while doing it, and good attack scaling units like horned warrior branded warrior and railbeater to take advantage of the valor attack scaling

[n13e86]

Originally posted by Gabriot:

Spoiler warning (don’t read if still unlocking everything):
I think it works better with some of the mt1 clans. Hellhorned would be a good example, you have additional ascend cards to overstack a floor, starter like torch easily helps extra revenge procs, armor cards to help get the initial survivability up, bonus points for branding rite which also procs revenge while doing it, and good attack scaling units like horned warrior branded warrior and railbeater to take advantage of the valor attack scaling

That is actually the first thing I thought of.
It does, however, require a lot of setup for something that doesn't do much in return.

[chanakochan]

To use Revenge effectively, set the unit up on bottom floor front.

Vanguardian simply requires you to understand Valor mechanics:

1. Start on bottom floor front. Put a tank (Shield Steward) behind her.
2. Let her tank damage while she can. Help her with whatever spells (Just Cause for example) you have available. Revenge puts Valor on the whole floor.
3. Before she might die and /before Relentless/, Advance the tank before her. Make sure to do this before Relentless so that the tank has a turn to gain Armor for its Valor.
4. Now you are ready to fight the boss. The tank in front has Hp and Armor, Fel behind has Valor-buffed attack and Multistrike.

[chanakochan]

3-floor setup for mid/late game:

Bottom: something to take out backliners
Mid: Vanguardian who takes hits from climbing frontliners, with tank and/or Multistrike units behind.
Top: your Shift floor

[n13e86]

Originally posted by chanakochan:

Vanguardian simply requires you to understand Valor mechanics

This is a gross overexagerration.

[Kel'Thuzad]

Vanguardian works well for me. I just have Fel at the front on the bottom floor, and keep her alive with things that giver her armour.
Regularly end battles with 50-80 Valor

[n13e86]

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

Vanguardian works well for me. I just have Fel at the front on the bottom floor, and keep her alive with things that giver her armour.
Regularly end battles with 50-80 Valor

Where do you get armour?

[Kel'Thuzad]

Originally posted by n13e86:

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

Vanguardian works well for me. I just have Fel at the front on the bottom floor, and keep her alive with things that giver her armour.
Regularly end battles with 50-80 Valor

Where do you get armour?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3491346474

The Angel behind Fel gives 5 armour for each Shift. Combined with a rank in the 'Savior' ability, which gives you another Shift and more armour.

When Fel is in front, she also gains armour up to her Valour stack.

[Nordos/atord]

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

Edit: I think Fel also gains some armour each turn, based on her Valour.

well, yes, if she is at front, she will get at resolve amror until it is equal to her valor stacks (no effect when you have more armor than valor ofc)-
There also other ways, but generally a pure vanguard line is on the weaker side.