Hotline Miami 2 is a bad *game* and here's why

[adb]

DISCLAIMER

(EDIT: November 11th, 2023) Wow. I kind of forgot I had this up here. I was just getting a friend into Hotline Miami when I suddenly realized one night that I made this whole thing. Looking back, I'm cringing a little bit at some of the things I said, but I still stand by most of my points that were originally made here. Guess I might as well make an effort to proof-read, make an addendum, maybe elaborate, something, anything. Also, if your counterpoint to any of this literally just boils down to "haha get good" with no other meaningful context or explanation, this is not a discussion post for you. Unlike you, some people here like to be able to identify and understand bad or questionable game design. Please realize that and never speak here again, you useless f ucking human refuse.

Despite what you're about to read being a layered case that can be understood as "This game sucks. Do not recommend. It's not worth your time", I would like you to understand now that I still very much like Hotline Miami 2: Wrong Number. As a video game, HM2 has so many ill-advised decisions and bulls hit design choices that, to this day, still baffles me, but if we look past that, HM2 still has a lot going for it that I would argue does better than HM1. The music and aesthetics especially are a pretty big step up, and while the story is controversial, I'd say I enjoyed it, and there are maybe some moments where HM2 is still pretty enjoyable to play. This post is effectively just my way of identifying Everything Wrong With Hotline Miami 2: The Video Game (CinemaSins and adjacent fans, raise your hands). I have explored and seen a lot from this game over the years, since about 2016-2017, getting invested in the speed running and score running scenes, keeping up with most content that comes out regarding this series, investing myself with the lore, jamming out to the soundtracks, all that good and fun stuff, but I think it's time I properly give this game what for.

Also, if you want to argue that this should be posted as a review instead of a discussion, I made the conscious decision to not post this as a review on the game's store page. Why? I don't know, to be honest. I think I just have more faith in people who check the discussions actually understanding the game.

With all of that being said, let's get started!

GENERAL PROBLEMS:

• Weapon pickup mechanic is still faulty in general with range and choosing which weapon to pick up if there are multiple grouped up in a pile. Also in rare cases, weapon pickups break near walls for seemingly no reason.
  
• Camera control near the edges of some screens is forcibly taken away from the player, potentially disorienting both aim and movement.
  
• The delayed checkpoint system makes restarting certain screens significantly more dangerous than others.
  
• The delayed checkpoint system can potentially softlock the game on numerous screens (AKA, clipping into some level geometry and getting stuck until you restart the level).
  
• Enemy AI response times, while more consistent than before, disapproves any use of melee weapons throughout levels over using a firearm.
  
• Enemy AI's consistent reactions to gunshots makes using melee, or weapons with low ammo or silencers, even less viable.
  
• Enemy AI respond so fast to gunshots, if they are on the other side of a door, they will sometimes pass through it and get shot before it's even finished opening.
  
• Accuracy across all guns have been noticeably reduced compared to HM1.
  
• Bullet travel speeds are overall decreased. This encourages super careful play (AKA, p ussyfooting), peeking from corners, and overall slower strategies not very conducive of the fast-paced nature of the games.
  
• The tier list for guns can basically be described as such: The two good guns (AK-47 and Mendoza) for their above average ammo count and fire rate, and the guns you use when you don't have the two good guns (Everything else).
  
• Fat Enemies (Thugs) rebooted health system only makes them more annoying to deal with (They never always did their "stumble" animation after being shot).
  
• Terrible hitboxes make getting around certain corners, or through certain doorways needlessly difficult, which can also get the player stuck in some cases.
  
• The significant nerf to the corner pushing system makes the game play feel far more clunky than before.
  
• Most executions have been needlessly elongated, making knocking down enemies more time consuming and riskier than they needed to be.
  
• Executions still can be useful depending on the weapon drops you get in a level, making some strategies luck dependent.
  
• Some guns completely outperform others in all circumstances, so certain strategies are significantly affected by weapon luck. (Beginning of “First Blood”)
  
• Certain corners allow for melee enemies to pass through them and attack safely from any incoming attacks from the player.
  
• Thrown weapons do not bounce off of walls anymore. Rather instead just stopping in midair once their invisible hitbox collides with a wall.
  
• Player and wall hitboxes at corners regularly allow you to be shot around them after taking cover.
  
• Some levels have a tendency to have bad wall collision, allowing players to walk freely out of bounds (Enemies can also escape outside the boundaries and chase you down).
  
• The developers even slightly encourage the concept of unironically using a controller to play this game. As a keyboard purist, I feel somehow offended.

CHARACTER SPECIFIC PROBLEMS:

MARTIN BROWN/PIG BUTCHER:

• Character model is fat, so he has larger hitboxes (Undoubtedly can be seen as an issue), uses weapons differently, and has different executions (These two, not as much, but not having this knowledge could lead to some confused deaths).

THE FANS:

• Corey's roll is effectively useless against melee enemies as they'll continue to follow you until your invincibility frames from the roll wear off, and then kill you.
  
• Corey's roll only moves in a straight line, so it's useless at approaching any enemy who is behind something.
  
• Corey cannot roll when standing over a knocked down enemy.
  
• Tony has no ranged options and, coupled with the heavy reliance on gunplay and wide open areas, is severely unoptimal and useless.
  
• Mark's MP5s cannot be dropped until empty, so they must be used up before any other option. God forbid you have to deal with an enemy that can duck under your bullets when you can't drop your guns.
  
• One of Mark's greatest strengths, shooting through walls, is an unintentional glitch.
  
• Mark's character model is fat.
  
• Alex is an arguably worse version of Tony, but she also has a mentally handicapped swan following her.
  
• Ash's AI consistently breaks and prevents him from moving through certain areas.
  
• Ash's AI only loosely follows the player; coupled with him randomly stopping makes precise control of him needlessly difficult or nearly impossible.

JAKE:

• Character model is fat.
  
• Jake received heavy nerfs because of the changed thrown weapon physics, rendering him significantly less useful.
  
• Jake's thrown weapons now stop when they kill an enemy and are only able to kill one enemy per throw.
  
• Irvin ...is fine, I guess (Still kind of just a nerfed version of Richter from HM1).
  
• Dallas is a gimmicky version of Tony. Trades no fast executions for SUPER BADASS NUNCHAKU, however, the lack of ranged options still renders Dallas unoptimal and useless.

EVAN WRIGHT:

• Evan's Rage Mode takes a while to activate for little benefit since most enemies can just be lured at corners.
  
• Evan in Rage Mode has a slower rate of fire with all firearms (If you want to argue for whatever character or story reason, fine. I still find it slightly irksome).

BEARD:

• The Flamethrower disincentivizes literally every other weapon choice.

RICHTER:

• Richter has a slower rate of fire with specifically the pump shotgun.
  
• Where is Richter’s Silenced Uzi?

THE SON:

• Bodyguard is just Corey, but tagged with a slow melee weapon.
  
• Dirty Hands is a worse version of Tony because the punching speed is not any faster.
  
• The Son's executions tend to take even longer than normal.
  
• The Son has a slower attack speed with all melee weapons.

LEVEL SPECIFIC PROBLEMS:

PILOT - MIDNIGHT ANIMAL:

• Tutorial is irrelevant once the controls are understood, but significantly longer than HM1 Tutorial.
  
• There is no option to skip like HM1 Tutorial.

1ST SCENE - DOWN UNDER:

• Poor prop placement at corners.
  
• Large open areas with randomly moving (roaming) gunmen.
  
• Useful weapons placed in not useful places.

2ND SCENE - HOMICIDE:

• Doors in tight corridors on the second floor constantly knock enemies down unavoidably.
  
• Patrolling gunmen in open hallways outside your vision.

3RD SCENE - HARD NEWS:

• Very large rooms and lines of sight coupled with random roaming and patrolling gunmen.
  
• Large closed off areas with room for random roaming AI to be too far away to be lured by gunshots.
  
• Large amounts of bullet stopping props that are basically worthless.
  
• Long lines of sight through multiple windows with multiple gunmen behind them.
  
• Numerous props placed in the centers of rooms limiting movement to just the perimeter.

4TH SCENE - FINAL CUT:

• Very large hallways with roaming gunmen.
  
• Plants that completely visually cover enemies in the middle of a room.

5TH SCENE - FIRST TRIAL:

• Bushes that can cover the roaming AI around corners.
  
• Windows near the start of the second floor allow you to get shot from out of range easily.
  
• Roaming AI in bad spots.

6TH SCENE - MOVING UP:

• Cramped corridors lead to numerous knockdowns in doorways and numerous lures from a single gunshot.
  
• Final floor makes Tony a needlessly frustrating, useless option, and forces strict gun use almost the entire way through.
  
• Unless you ration bullets with Mark, the final floor's best strategy is luck dependent on getting multiple Uzis.

7TH SCENE - NO MERCY:

• Misaligned doorways make walking through the first floor a bit clunkier than it should be.

8TH SCENE - EXECUTION:

• The layout of both floors require backtracking to clear.

9TH SCENE - AMBUSH:

• The positions of random roaming AI can make knockdowns in some doorways unavoidable.

10TH SCENE - INTO THE PIT:

• The entire sewer portion can be skipped because of bad programming.
  
• The sewer portion consists of very large open rooms connected by very large hallways with numerous gunmen out of line of sight.

11TH SCENE - DEAD AHEAD:

• The layouts of the levels require hopping from gun to gun, making the level very dependent on weapon luck.
  
• Last couple areas encourage very slow, careful, boring play, and baiting a ton of enemies, including Thugs. Hope you bring a gun.

12TH SCENE - DEATH WISH:
MARK’S SECTION:

• Clearly designed for use of his ability, and yet there is a chance it just doesn't work.
  
• Enemy placement seems specific to make it as annoying as possible to make use of Mark’s ability.
  
• Too many windows in completely needless places means that certain roaming gunmen can kill you easily unless you play overly careful and slow moving up the central corridor.

COREY’S SECTION:

• Checkpoint not being immediate in combination with two enemies by the entrance.
  
• Without a very specific use of her ability, which can go wrong if you don't have a very good start, the entire level becomes baiting a single room without getting f ucked over by bad gun luck and doors knocking enemies down randomly, throwing off quick, efficient strategies.
  
• The left room connected to the center basically forces you to play slow and lame due to the enemy placement.
  
• Too many windows in completely needless places again.

TONY’S SECTION:

• Beyond the very first area, there is very little you can do except bait every enemy in the level and pray they don't shoot you on reaction. The only slight alleviation is, once again, a timing specific, obscure route that only solves half of the problem anyway.
  
• Too many windows in completely needless places AGAIN (You already know this issue isn't going to get any better).

ALEX AND ASH’S SECTION:

• Checkpoint not being immediate can lead to accidental shooting or enemy baiting, as well as create difficult situations.
  
• Tight doorways make already buggy AI even more incompetent and likely to get knocked down.
  
• Gunmen placed just beyond most doorways, making the only consistent solution baiting them.
  
• Gunmen placed out of sight range.
  
• Excessively long corridor with patrolling gunmen.

13TH SCENE - SUBWAY:

• Roaming AI can screw up effective routes through the level.

14TH SCENE - STRONGHOLD:

• Large areas with no way to effectively kill enemies at range makes clearing them out take forever.
  
• Open areas and long hallways with gunmen out of sight range.

15TH SCENE - WITHDRAWAL:

• Explosions on multiple floors are more visually distracting than Tension's explosion room from HM1, as well as not killing many enemies.
  
• Enemies get lured during the explosion and immediately run through the room while it's still combusting.
  
• It is possible to simultaneously kill the last enemy on the third floor and still die, making it impossible to finish the level, requiring you to restart the level.

16TH SCENE - CASUALTIES:

• Very large open areas with numerous roaming and patrolling gunmen.

17TH SCENE - FIRST BLOOD:

• Gun luck basically decides the opening of the first floor.
  
• The random roaming gunman on the first floor cannot be safely approached with melee, only with a gun or thrown weapon.

18TH SCENE - DEMOLITION:

• Random roaming AI on the first floor can make fast strategies sometimes impossible.
  
• Opening of the second floor basically tells you to f uck off if you didn't enter the elevator with a gun.
  
• Inconsistent AI can unpredictably see you through small gaps and doorways, or don't.

19TH SCENE - HOUSE CALL:

• Long hallways with way too many windows make knockdowns and gun luck frustrating.

20TH SCENE - RELEASE:

• Starts with the Prison Boss fight, which plays like a diet version of Biker's fight in HM1, and it is handled just as poorly.
  
• Charging Prisoners are able to grab and kill you through walls.
  
• "Walls are useless, THAT'S the hardmode :D -Dingodrole" [www.twitch.tv]

21ST SCENE - SEIZURE:

• Mostly black enemies on a black floor with dimmed lights.
  
• Plants making potential hiding spots for roaming gunmen.
  
• Very long hallways with plenty of roaming AI nearby.

22ND SCENE - BLOOD MONEY:

• Some of the largest rooms in the game with white flooring that can make keeping track of your cursor annoying.
  
• The entire level focuses primarily on guns and discourages the use of melee at literally every point of every screen.

23RD SCENE - CAUGHT:

• Roaming AI can make getting a gun on the first floor very tedious and luck dependent.

24TH SCENE - TAKEOVER:

• Very large floors with large open rooms.
  
• Lots of windows and large hallways filled with gunmen. So long that playing through it can feel tedious nearing the end since you have to search every corner to clear every floor.

FINAL SCENE - APOCALYPSE:

• Reversed controls were needlessly removed because I guess entertaining gameplay is not the focus of HM2.

BONUS SCENE - THE ABYSS:

• Very large floors and rooms full of gunmen while you play as a character that has no ranged options if you choose to play the pacifist route.
  
• Roaming and patrolling gunmen that can sometimes lock onto you from outside your vision.
  
• Possibility of clipping into level geometry when reaching the last area, getting you stuck and forcing you to restart the level over.
  
  

  HARD MODE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS:

  • Take every level and amplify everything that was already obnoxious to deal with. More Thugs, more gunmen with even faster response times, potentially slower pathing, a pointless and brain dead ammo system.
  
  

  LEVEL EDITOR SPECIFIC PROBLEMS:

  • IT'S STILL UNFINISHED.
    
  • Old but lol. Good note to leave on. [www.twitch.tv]
  
  

  Thank you for making to the end!

[vulpvulpes]

GENERAL PROBLEMS

Never seen that happen
It has never interfered with my aim or movement, actually I quite like it for level design
A few, not some
Never had that happen to me, but I'll take your word for it
I wouldn't say so. Melee weapons have a place
Yes, this game is more firearm focused than HM1
This isn't really a problem
Arguably this makes it both better for crowds and more realistic
That's true
All guns are good, I don't know what you mean there
What do you mean rebooted? In both games they take 5 bullets before going down, and will bleed out after a while if hit for less. And how is this a problem?
Also (sort of) true
What do you mean by 'corner pushing system'?
This is to add character to everyone, although I do agree it makes it riskier and more time consuming, it's not really a problem
I guess
Not all circumstances. For isntance, the shotgun + DB may not be good for First Blood, but they take down fats in one hit
This is a definite problem
If you throw a hunk of metal at a wall, do you really expect it to bounce off?
I have never seen this happen
True
KB + M > Controller in all aspects

CHARACTER SPECIFIC PROBLEMS

Butcher-
Is that a problem? It's to vary characters

Corey-
It's not useless if you kill them when you finish the roll
It's not designed for taht, hence it unable to be able to turn
I don't see it as a problem, but I can see how someone would

Tony-
Fair enough

Mark-
This is only a problem when dodgers are present, but other than that it's a perfiectly fine mechanic
True
Is that a problem? It's to vary characters

Swans-
Pretty much
Yep
Yes

Jake-
Is that a problem? It's to vary characters
At no point in HM1 did I bounce this off walls to kill people. It's perfectly fine
And? That's how momentum works
I guess?
I'll give you that

Evan- (you're missing a [/b] tag here btw)
Not when you execute an enemy with a weapon (why wouldnt you)
Because he doesnt normally use firearms, it's to add character

Rat-
Yeah, I guess
It's kinda weird it isn't in the campaign, but it's in the editor

Son-
Refer to Mark, Swans, Tony, and Corey
I guess
Yeah
I'm pretty sure he can
Because of character, we've been through this
Not that I've noticed

LEVEL PROBLEMS

I'm not going to comment on these as I have not played the campaign in forever

HARD MODE
Because it's meant to be harder?

EDITOR
Yep, it's a buggy piece of wank that we all hate but still torture ourselves using
If you don't like people's first levels then do't play them, simple as that. You gotta start somewhere, you dont start out as a prodigy making THELEGOMack and Yoss quality levels

Feel free to defend your points

[Adeveth]

You can just post a review instead of just making a thread lol

Edit: Everytime i see the word "Window" in a Hotline Miami discussion, i instantly nope out.

(It's not like i'm reading all that.)

[Finnfinity]

- In Hm1 melee weapons were dominant. Gunplay is more fitting for a game like hotline miami, It kinda makes it like a bullet hell game while in hm1 you just go from enemy to enemy using god mode knife
- If your dominant strategy is to hide behind a corner and shoot enemies you might wanna re-evaluate your playstyle. Try a less overconfident playstyle, don't stop moving, rush through the level. It makes the game flow much better
- tony can kill fat guys with melee attacks which makes him incredibly useful. He is also proof that melee weapons are STILL useful in hm2 even if less dominant
- big hitboxes on fat characters are the price for their useful abilities (lethal throws, dual guns, fast executions)
- I agree that Corey's roll is rather useless although there are still some satisfying uses for it, like her floor on death wish for example. Also there is a level editor where you can make levels build around her ability, It's great for custom boss battles for example
- if all the other minor conplains you named really make you think it's a bad game i'm afraid I can't help you and I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy it as much as I do. Hotline Miami 2 has a game flow that I have never seen in any other game. When you surpass a certain skill gap it gets even more fun as just rush through the levels, full conboing them. That plus the amazing soundtrack, the atmosphere, the style and the pixel att make it my favorite game of all time.

[holy SWAG]

nice "review" i guess
you could've just left a negative post on the game's review page instead though

[snewpster]

Nice copy and paste

[Game Master]

No words for Manny? :)
Still, all what you wrote is true enough. But I really like to hurt other people, so I don't care about this problems. :)

[adb]

Pardo is basically Richard with different executions (that don't suck) and more gore. At the end of the day, not a lot of these complaints matter in a casual playthrough (especially for character problems since they give uniqueness to the characters). The sorts of problems in this discussion caters toward more hardcore players/speedrunners of the game.

[Finnfinity]

Originally posted by ADB:

Pardo is basically Richard with different executions (that don't suck) and more gore. At the end of the day, not a lot of these complaints matter in a casual playthrough (especially for character problems since they give uniqueness to the characters). The sorts of problems in this discussion caters toward more hardcore players/speedrunners of the game.

Yeah I have to agree with that. The random AI and weapon spawns makes it luck dependant if you try to speedrun a level or try to get a high score. This really sucks but on the other hand, randomizers also have the perk that you get a different experience each time you play a level.

If you love a game/movie you should be able to criticize it, the title just seems like you really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate it lol

[Finnfinity]

Originally posted by ADB:

Well, I mean, I could have just opened up with the title being, "This game is actually garbage". Haha. ...But I can't. Despite gameplay flaws, this game and Hotline 1 are something special to me.

Well, you did exactly that

[Fusilli_]

This was a laugh I really needed. Thanks dude.

[Adeveth]

Originally posted by Fusilli:

This was a laugh I really needed. Thanks dude.

[Antond123123]

2 words: G I T G U D

[Finnfinity]

Originally posted by Antond123123:

2 words: G I T G U D

Criticizing a game =/= being bad at the game

I'm pretty good at Tic Tac Toe and I still think the game sucks


Similary I think CS:GO and Quake are great shooters but I still suck at both of them

[Plank]

Yikes chief, thanks for the laugh

[Agamemnon Unleashed]

The whole point of this game is to discourage people from real life violence, so maybe it's a good thing you're bad at it lol