What went wrong?

[Hamburglur]

Why do people not like it?

[Bombast]

A similar thread already got locked. But since I'm here anyway.

Originally posted by Bombast:

1. Decent but not spectacular map design, and atrocious character models
2. The writing steps beyond 'expansive' and straight into verbose
3. Poor characterization, including two-dimensional villains and companions that are just... there
4. Lack of tension (I found exactly two fail conditions for the entire game, and I doubt there's many more)
5. Extremely simplistic gameplay, both in crisis (Combat) and dialogue, both of which can be cheesed without even trying
6. Ending that feels like they either ran out of money or wrote themselves into a corner
7. And (Not my problem, personally) Poor business/crowd funding practices. I list it because it is there, but I'm not going to argue for or against it in this thread

EDIT: There's also a subset of people who are crying because the game is 'SJW propaganda,' but they are silly people who can be easily ignored.

[Blackadar]

The easiest response is to just cut and paste my review.

PS:T remains one of my top 5 all time favorite games. I reviewied it many years ago on GamesDomain. So of course I backed this game. I've been playing RPGs since the original Wizardry. I watched a couple of videos but avoided playing the demo because I wanted the entire experience at once. I was truly excited to play this one.

And...meh.

If there was a "meh" button on Steam, this game would be the poster child for it. The first problem the game encounters are the expectations. When you name your game the same as one of the most beloved RPG of all time you're setting the bar quite high. There's no way for an experienced PS:T player to play this and not think of the original. It doesn't deserve the name Torment so I'll refer to it as Tides.

Normally I'd talk about the graphics, the sounds, the quests, the bugs, the pros and cons of the game. That's my normal MO. But I can't do it in this case. So let me tell you why it finally got a thumbs down from me.

Sure it's linear - but so was Torment.
Sure there are bugs (like the combat freeze bug - inexcusable) but those will get patched out.
Sure the graphics can get muddled. But those are acceptable.
Sure there are exceptionally annoying sequences (not really combat) in the game that if you don't have the correct build you will struggle to get through.

Nope, those aren't the problem.

The game commits the cardinal sin of being unmemorable. How? Let me provide a few examples.

The NPCs are all fairly dull. People still remember Morte, Annah, Fall-From-Grace, Dak'kon and Ingus. I haven't played that game in 10 years and can rattle off the characters. I finished Tides a week ago and can't remember one character name. I guess you could chalk that up as a Senior Moment but the characters aren't even worth the time to talk to. Plus there are some very weak NPCs that you simply should avoid. There was no attachment to any of them by the end of the game and that's a darn shame. I HAD to pull Morte out of that pile of skulls 15 years ago. There was no such urgency or attachment in Tides.

Remember the Morgue? Farods? The Upper Ward? Curst? Torment had some great set areas each with a different feel. In fact, if you go look at the screenshots of the upcoming remastered version the areas look awesome. Tides? There's one - the Bloom - and that's about it. The main town just seems like a collection of different ideas with no coherency at all. Other areas aren't memorable at all. Like the NPCs, the world isn't very interesting. Go to the Tides website - or better yet, just Google - the Tides wallpapers. Those captured the imagination. The actual set designs were so flat and dull as compared to those it's mind boggling how poorly executed the art design is.

But the worst, most cardinal sin is the writing. It's writing for writing's sake. It's like a student trying to pad their essay to get to the magical 1,000 word count. Much like this review, it just goes on and on and says nothing new. You started off in Torment with some fairly extensive dialog but it wasn't overwhelming. Only later - as you got more engrossed into the world - did it explain more and more to you. Torment built up the world, word by word, until you were fully engrossed. Tides just spews dialog at the player without ever really taking the time to set everything up. Thus it has little meaning and no emotional impact.

Now next week a remastered version of Torment will be released. You can get the existing game for half the price of this one and it's a far, far superior product. Tyranny, another RPG recently released, is a superior product. Now maybe they'll create an enhanced edition with new NPCs, areas and dialog that makes Tides into something more. But until that happens, I'd say you have better options for your money.

[The Mask]

@Blackadar - I agree with you on everything, except the writing where I will make some addendums:

- upon replay if you chose to follow a certain tide, the game does respond in its writing to you.

- I found Rhin, Matkina and Erritis to be decent companions, but they're no where near as P:T companions, and the rest of them are very very poorly developed/written.

I smashed together an essay (which I posted here), but which I will link the official T:ToN forums for, since the Steam forums have poor formatting choices:

https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=17617



@OP: if you go ahead and read that, you'll learn the perspective of a player that loves the original, and why I think this compares poorly to it. If what I detail there, doesn't picture any deal breakers for you, then by all means - I'm wrong. it's all cool for me.

But it should.

We should have some standards set for us as gamers.

[Hamburglur]

Originally posted by Bombast:

A similar thread already got locked. But since I'm here anyway.

Originally posted by Bombast:

1. Decent but not spectacular map design, and atrocious character models
2. The writing steps beyond 'expansive' and straight into verbose
3. Poor characterization, including two-dimensional villains and companions that are just... there
4. Lack of tension (I found exactly two fail conditions for the entire game, and I doubt there's many more)
5. Extremely simplistic gameplay, both in crisis (Combat) and dialogue, both of which can be cheesed without even trying
6. Ending that feels like they either ran out of money or wrote themselves into a corner
7. And (Not my problem, personally) Poor business/crowd funding practices. I list it because it is there, but I'm not going to argue for or against it in this thread

EDIT: There's also a subset of people who are crying because the game is 'SJW propaganda,' but they are silly people who can be easily ignored.

That's a legitimate complaint. What is it based on?

[Bombast]

Originally posted by Shrek:

That's a legitimate complaint. What is it based on?

There's a bi-dude. One of them. Hide your kids.

[oldrocker99]

Originally posted by The Mask:

I smashed together an essay (which I posted here), but which I will link the official T:ToN forums for, since the Steam forums have poor formatting choices:

https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=17617



@OP: if you go ahead and read that, you'll learn the perspective of a player that loves the original, and why I think this compares poorly to it. If what I detail there, doesn't picture any deal breakers for you, then by all means - I'm wrong. it's all cool for me.

Very well-written, and, though I'm still in the Bloom, your criticisms are spot on. I'm an old fart too, and I'm looking forward to the remastered P:T the way I had looked forward to this game. I'm still playing it a lot, and having a grand time, notwithstanding your valid points.

[Hamburglur]

Originally posted by Bombast:

Originally posted by Shrek:

That's a legitimate complaint. What is it based on?

There's a bi-dude. One of them. Hide your kids.

Oh. Yeah, that's nothing to get upset over.

[The Mask]

Originally posted by LINUXoldrocker99:

Very well-written, and, though I'm still in the Bloom, your criticisms are spot on. I'm an old fart too, and I'm looking forward to the remastered P:T the way I had looked forward to this game. I'm still playing it a lot, and having a grand time, notwithstanding your valid points.

Thanks. And I doubt you're that old, because if you're old, then that makes me old too, and I seriously don't wanna look at it that way... >.< :p

[tirpe]

I like the game but for me the combat feels still a bit too complicated. Dont think i had such a hard time understanding the combat system in the original planescape torment. But for some reason I just cant figure out how the effort system works withouth running out of it too soon and then having to try managing fights with 0 effort.

While i like talking my way out of most fights I still would like to feel occasionally like a real badass when fighting but I usually end hitting my opponents for 0 damage even when using a lot of effort. The game didnt really offer a good tutorial for that stuff.

Most cyphers also feel like too expensive when most of them are single target items instead of aoe´s. There is also lots of different damage types but the game doesnt seem that interested in explaining what is the best way to take advantage of that or even giving info what enemies are suspectible to which kind of damage.

[ppaladin123]

All the non-physical damage types seem to be covered by a generic resistance stat...so I am not sure why there are different types at all. LIke why does it matter if the same defense stat always applies and there are no abilities/items that specifically boost/remove resistance to a subset of them?

[ppaladin123]

Originally posted by Bombast:

Originally posted by Shrek:

That's a legitimate complaint. What is it based on?

There's a bi-dude. One of them. Hide your kids.

i can't imagine being a person who would give a crap about this. I think he mentions it in passing and only if you specifically probe his backstory and inquire about the nature of the relationship. The game does not ask you to take a stance on whether this is good or bad and it has no plot implications at all. The horror!

[Sarsben]

I'll just add that a good deal of people do like it a lot. Professional reviews have been almost unanimously positive (though naturally tempered with some criticism), and a lot of random players and backers do seem to be pleased with it. Quite a few others are not. I agree with many of the specific criticisms that have been listed here and elsewhere, even if I disagree as to the severity of said problems, or think that many of them are balanced out by the game's strong suits. I suspect that the current "mixed" user reviews on Steam will creep up into more positive territory over the coming months, as has been the case for a lot of games, but who knows. There are also some free content additions planned that might improve some things.

In short, people who didn't like Planescape: Torment, or who don't like text heavy and combat light CRPGs in general, are unlikely to enjoy it. People who do like those things, or are unfamiliar with them but open minded, may or may not like it. So, in short, it's pretty much like any other game.

Also, I haven't finished the game yet, so my opinions are based on the first... maybe 60-70% of it, I guess?

[Bombast]

Originally posted by ppaladin123:

Originally posted by Bombast:

There's a bi-dude. One of them. Hide your kids.

i can't imagine being a person who would give a crap about this. I think he mentions it in passing and only if you specifically probe his backstory and inquire about the nature of the relationship. The game does not ask you to take a stance on whether this is good or bad and it has no plot implications at all. The horror!

It didn't occur to me either, until I went on the interwebz and saw people complaining about it.

I find most to all of this 'SJWs in video games' stuff to be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but I can understand most of it. I understand why Commander Shepard being potentially gay bothers people. I can kind of see why people may think there being a 'suspiciously large' quantity of female warriors/important characters in Tyranny is suspect. But claiming a single non-straight character who doesn't even want to talk to you about it is some soft of SJW plot to normalize ♥♥♥♥/bisexuals is beyond bigotted - It's straight up moronic. It's one step away from Flat Earthers and Lizard People Conspiracy Theorists.

[ppaladin123]

Originally posted by sear:

Originally posted by ppaladin123:

All the non-physical damage types seem to be covered by a generic resistance stat...so I am not sure why there are different types at all. LIke why does it matter if the same defense stat always applies and there are no abilities/items that specifically boost/remove resistance to a subset of them?

They have different effects on enemies - for instance, Chemical Damage burns enemies over time, Energy Damage knocks enemies back, etc.

Ah! Well ten the energy types do matter. Could be helpful if, for example, when you select damage type on the Nano's energ bolt spell, some sort of mouseover appears to let you knowthe consquences of choosing one damage type over another. My d&d-trained brain was expecting different enemy types being weak/resistant to different damage types.

[The Mask]

Originally posted by ppaladin123:

Ah! Well ten the energy types do matter. Could be helpful if, for example, when you select damage type on the Nano's energ bolt spell, some sort of mouseover appears to let you knowthe consquences of choosing one damage type over another. My d&d-trained brain was expecting different enemy types being weak/resistant to different damage types.

Some are weak to specific damage types.

Malaise is weak to mental.

Abykoses are weak to transdimentional.

Anything organic suffers harder when you deal chemical because the burn deals more DoT.

And I feel everyone gets smashed the same by energy, but it works best against melees because it pushes them back.



So your D&D brain was working right, it just needed to adapt a bit. :p

And I actually like that part of the game. You feel good when you push someone back and they get knocked down after they hit a wall. :D