Is anyone actually using Cyphers the way we're supposed to?

[Aquillion]

I noticed in another thread that everyone who answered the question said they almost never used cyphers (aside from the ones that gave permanent boosts), using them only when it was absolutely necessary to avoid cypher sickness.

I personally only used one non-permanent boost cypher in the entire game. It always feels wasteful and unnecessary; I'd always prefer to save them or to sell them for money.

[Bombast]

Yup.

I guess it's not fair to blame inXile for this, but decades of gaming has taught everyone to save big, powerful items for when you really need them. And there's pretty much no point in the game where you'll need to use them, so they pile up. I feel like the Cypher Sickness was included to keep people from hoarding, but since combat is so infrequent, and Cyphers drop every 5 minutes, it was always more convenient to just sell extras if you were really in trouble.

[Aquillion]

For myself, I feel that my gaming-hording instinct is partially a result of growing up playing really unfair text adventures - the games in the Enchanter series, for instance, would become permanently unwinnable if you used any consumable item before the last possible point when you can. So it was very possible to get to the end or near the end and discover that your entire playthrough was doomed from the start because you used that KULCAD scroll on the wrong thing.

But it's a bit sad, since a number of these cyphers have really cool-looking effects, yet I know I'll never use them because there's never a right time.

(Well, I guess I can use Rhin's ability, but even then, depending on what you do with her, you only have that for a short time.)

[strekalalex84]

On further playthroughs I was able to get over my hoarding instinct and use the cyphers a little more, particularly with Rhin optimized as a cypher monkey. By 3rd tier she becomes the most powerful cypher user in the game, and it incentivized me to use them more. But even with exploiting Rhin, I still generally had no shortage of cyphers. I was a lot less likely to face cypher sickness issues though, since Rhin had a ton of slots and I'd fill them and make sure to use at least a few every time I got into combat.

Overall, I agree with the criticism that there's not enough chance to use them.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Bombast:

Yup.

I guess it's not fair to blame inXile for this, but decades of gaming has taught everyone to save big, powerful items for when you really need them. And there's pretty much no point in the game where you'll need to use them, so they pile up.

Right BUT wrong because you can't pile them up. And for most sell them for the cash is pointless with a very low sell price.

That's why I started use few, and with Rhyn I used a few more.

That for most players dev failed design a difficulty balance for combats and skills check, then for sure it makes cyohers pointless, but the flaw isn't the Cypher design it's the lack of balance tuning and the lack of difficulty setting.

[Bombast]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Originally posted by Bombast:

Yup.

I guess it's not fair to blame inXile for this, but decades of gaming has taught everyone to save big, powerful items for when you really need them. And there's pretty much no point in the game where you'll need to use them, so they pile up.

Right BUT wrong because you can't pile them up. And for most sell them for the cash is pointless with a very low sell price.

That's why I started use few, and with Rhyn I used a few more.

That for most players dev failed design a difficulty balance for combats and skills check, then for sure it makes cyohers pointless, but the flaw isn't the Cypher design it's the lack of balance tuning and the lack of difficulty setting.

I know ♥♥♥♥ posting is your thing, but can you at least finish reading a post before quoting it?

[T.T.O.]

I think that using cyphers would not feel like a waste, if only there was more difficulty. As it is now, you own everyone in combat anyway, so you might use cyphers only if you want to own them even more. Non-combat cyphers are even worse, as non-combat checks are auto-pass with enough edge/effort. Maybe it would be better if, in terms of usefulness, cyphers > skills >> edge/effort. And because there are cyphers all around the place, it would make sense if the opponents would use their own cyphers too (except for ones who don't need them because of their own powerful abilities). That way you would often need to use cyphers to win (just like it was intended), and at the same time you wouldn't feel like you've wasted it because you can't stack many of them, and replacement cyphers lie right around the corner.

[Hawke]

1. Cyphers are unique;
2. Cyphers are relatively powerful/useful;
3. I may need them later.

This combination leads to using only the cyphers with permanent bonuses, as said above. And because the need to use cyphers (almost) never comes, the party reaches the final battle(s) with minor cypher sickness.

I guess, there are several battles, where cyphers would be handy, but peaceful resolutions were preferable (e.g. Inifere with his 135-165 HP and nano supporter).
The cyphers, which give temporal bonuses or restore stat pools, can be helpful, if one wishes to avoid resting, but regular consumables are more likely to be spent (see point 1).

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Hawke:

1. Cyphers are unique;
2. Cyphers are relatively powerful/useful;
3. I may need them later.

This combination leads to using only the cyphers with permanent bonuses, as said above. And because the need to use cyphers (almost) never comes, the party reaches the final battle(s) with minor cypher sickness.

I guess, there are several battles, where cyphers would be handy, but peaceful resolutions were preferable (e.g. Inifere with his 135-165 HP and nano supporter).
The cyphers, which give temporal bonuses or restore stat pools, can be helpful, if one wishes to avoid resting, but regular consumables are more likely to be spent (see point 1).

Again, that's wrong because the number of Cipher carried is limited.

Also most don't sell for much, plus anyway you probably don't need the money.

So you use some Cipher to open slot for more to come.

[Dr_Sarcy]

Not really. I used one, found out they do damage to friendlies (no reason to think they wouldn't, I guess) and never felt the need to use one again.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Some people have this issue with the tabletop game as well (which does encourage players to use cyphers frequently and to not horde them - and believe me when I say that the tabletop's version of cypher sickness can be a lot worse than the version implemented into Torment) but I think it's less of an issue there because they're more plentiful.

Say, for instance, that I find a cypher that reduces the difficulty of my attacks (so it's easier to hit the enemy) and improves my Evasion. While I might save that for a reasonably tough enemy, anyone/anything my character kills when they decide to use it is probably going to have some other cypher I'll like.

A well-designed Numenera campaign should be giving the players new cyphers as quickly or even faster than they're using up their existing ones. And I think Torment messed that bit up.

[Aquillion]

The tabletop version also has the advantage that it has a DM who the players can trust to adjust the difficulty and number of cyphers they find as necessary, so there's no risk of running out or anything.

Plus, maybe more importantly, a tabletop game has an unlimited setting with unlimited cyphers available - if I run low on cyphers, I can say "all right, let's take a bit of time to hunt down some more" and there will always be some available somewhere. In Torment: Tides, there's a finite number of cyphers, a finite amount of money, and so on, and players know this.

I would be much less careful with my cyphers if this was eg. a roguelike where I know I can always just explore the dungeon and find more.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Dr_Sarcy:

Not really. I used one, found out they do damage to friendlies (no reason to think they wouldn't, I guess) and never felt the need to use one again.

Just one try and you give up? So you sold them all after that? Really?

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by Aquillion:

The tabletop version also has the advantage that it has a DM who the players can trust to adjust the difficulty and number of cyphers they find as necessary, so there's no risk of running out or anything.

Plus, maybe more importantly, a tabletop game has an unlimited setting with unlimited cyphers available - if I run low on cyphers, I can say "all right, let's take a bit of time to hunt down some more" and there will always be some available somewhere. In Torment: Tides, there's a finite number of cyphers, a finite amount of money, and so on, and players know this.

I would be much less careful with my cyphers if this was eg. a roguelike where I know I can always just explore the dungeon and find more.

Yeah, I think Torment's shown that the Cypher System isn't the best for being adapted to a cRPG. From what I've heard people say* it's rather easy for people to get so much Effort and Edge that it makes passing all sorts of checks trivially easy. Which can't really happen in a tabletop campaign since the GM can adjust the difficulty of the tests to account for that specialisation.

*No personal experience myself; save files got corrupted after a few hours gameplay, just before finally leaving Sagus Cliffs, and lost the urge to play until the first patch in the hopes of avoiding the save file bug rearing its head again. Doubt it'd happen; but I was paranoid, frustrated and had an urge to finally get around to finishing Pillars of Eternity.

[Dorok]

I don't think dev put enough efforts in balancing and difficulty management. For sure using a rather new system didn't help, but the focus on dialog and some skill check system and crisis seem have lost them on that aspect. People don't need Cyphers because difficulty and balances wasn't tested and tuned enough. Eventually cyphers could find their maximum usage through the highest difficulty levels but there's none, or eventually for solo/duo/trio plays.

[Bombast]

Originally posted by Shadow88:

Originally posted by Aquillion:

The tabletop version also has the advantage that it has a DM who the players can trust to adjust the difficulty and number of cyphers they find as necessary, so there's no risk of running out or anything.

Plus, maybe more importantly, a tabletop game has an unlimited setting with unlimited cyphers available - if I run low on cyphers, I can say "all right, let's take a bit of time to hunt down some more" and there will always be some available somewhere. In Torment: Tides, there's a finite number of cyphers, a finite amount of money, and so on, and players know this.

I would be much less careful with my cyphers if this was eg. a roguelike where I know I can always just explore the dungeon and find more.

Yeah, I think Torment's shown that the Cypher System isn't the best for being adapted to a cRPG. From what I've heard people say* it's rather easy for people to get so much Effort and Edge that it makes passing all sorts of checks trivially easy. Which can't really happen in a tabletop campaign since the GM can adjust the difficulty of the tests to account for that specialisation.

*No personal experience myself; save files got corrupted after a few hours gameplay, just before finally leaving Sagus Cliffs, and lost the urge to play until the first patch in the hopes of avoiding the save file bug rearing its head again. Doubt it'd happen; but I was paranoid, frustrated and had an urge to finally get around to finishing Pillars of Eternity.

I think the Effort/Edge system, would have worked better if a) it took more of each to get the best results from combat moves (Maybe reducing efficiency for each rank up?) and if you couldn't use companions for conversation checks (Maybe even world checks).