Stats Rant

[Dr_Sarcy]

As much as I'm enjoying the game, I utterly despise the way they've implemented stats in this game.

The way that stats act as consumables drives me nuts. For example, if you have 10 intelligence (they don't use the usual 18/19 stats allocation in similar games) and you want to persuade someone, you have to actually use around 4 intelligence to do so. Meaning if you do this once or twice, you can run out. Alternatively, you can try to get away with using less, which lowers your % chance of success.

What this means is that if you use up all your stats during conversations and then a battle starts, you can find yourself defenseless - because your stats are used in a similar way in combat.

This just seems like such an awful decision. Sure, you can replenish upon rest, but quests can progress whilst you rest. Which itself is a truly awful idea for a game of this type where you have loads of quests on the go at once. You can also spam restoratives, but this just seems another tedious way of working around what is, fundamentally, a horrible idea.

Surely all this encourages is save scumming? Save before every conversation and if you lose the roll, reload and try again.

They've taken what is so often a really fun and engaging mechanic of stat checks in conversation/ events (which encourage multiply playthroughs) into a tedious, frustrating chore. This, and the negative statuses accrued by using ciphers and equipping some items, just seems to hamstring the player for no reason at all.

[Grahor]

The idea is "win or lose the check in the conversation, both results are equally rewarding and enjoyable" - so you don't need to win all the checks, you can lose them and not lose any fun, and therefore you don't need to reload.

If you don't enjoy that type of gameplay - well... :)

[Boomer simpson]

I agree. It's nice that they're trying something new, but I think that the experience you're describing will be the one reflected in most review scores. One could argue that you shouldn't play like this because it isn't organic nor enjoyable, but people like playing games (especially long games) trying to get as close to if not exactly 100% from a playthrough and designing game mechanics that punish this mentality by making the player think that a "failed" dialogue will lock them out of some content will just make people not like the game.

[Dr_Sarcy]

Originally posted by Grahor:

The idea is "win or lose the check in the conversation, both results are equally rewarding and enjoyable" - so you don't need to win all the checks, you can lose them and not lose any fun, and therefore you don't need to reload.

If you don't enjoy that type of gameplay - well... :)

Yeah I've tried this. Every single failed roll has given a worse outcome (that I've tested), such as losing out on an item. i.e., absolutely not equally rewarding.

[Lordofriva]

its based on the Numenera Pen and Paper RPG.

Thats where the stat mechanics come from

[Drake]

Just be glad they didn't FULLY implement the numenera system then... because in the pnp version, those stats are also your HP (there is no HP bar, when you take damage it goes off might, then speed and last intellect).

Also you didn't grasp the concept in entirety. Because yes at lv1 you'll use stat points for many checks, but with levels you get what they call the Edge. Edge is basically a stat reduction. Like if a check cost 1 point of intellect and you have 1 Intellect edge, that check is free, always, anytime.

So when you advance your character and spec him in some stats, you'll be able to use skills and do checks without using your stats.

[Boomer simpson]

I don't see anywhere in his post where he shows a lack of understanding on how the system works. Even if you have Edge for a particular dialogue choice, there's no reason not to savescum unless the Edge by itself makes the success chance 100% (which it may sometimes do, but not always). It may make you reload less to get the desired result, but you're still incentivized to do so which is what he's complaining about.

[Morty2989]

I think the point of it all is to just roll with the outcome, the games doesn't boot you to the front screen for failing, afterall.

If you're so stressed by it and have to get everything right, yeah I guess you are going to save scum. (which be honest you were going to anyway).

[Boomer simpson]

As someone who plans on savescumming, I knew I was going to do so from the very beginning. But there's a distinct difference between savescumming in something like PS:T to see the difference in outcome between two cool dialogue choices and savescumming in Numenera which from what I can tell is the dialogue equivalent of taking a shot in X-COM aka something that a lot of people dislike.

[Dr_Sarcy]

Originally posted by Sajah:

Just be glad they didn't FULLY implement the numenera system then... because in the pnp version, those stats are also your HP (there is no HP bar, when you take damage it goes off might, then speed and last intellect).

Also you didn't grasp the concept in entirety. Because yes at lv1 you'll use stat points for many checks, but with levels you get what they call the Edge. Edge is basically a stat reduction. Like if a check cost 1 point of intellect and you have 1 Intellect edge, that check is free, always, anytime.

So when you advance your character and spec him in some stats, you'll be able to use skills and do checks without using your stats.

Of course I grasp the system - it's remarkably simple. With enough levels, I suppose Edge will functionally negate this entirely. Hopefully.

Essentially that is saying "this system isn't that bad because eventually you won't have to deal with it", and "it could be worse". Both of which seem to support my argument that this is a poor system.

[Dr_Sarcy]

Originally posted by Boomer simpson:

As someone who plans on savescumming, I knew I was going to do so from the very beginning. But there's a distinct difference between savescumming in something like PS:T to see the difference in outcome between two cool dialogue choices and savescumming in Numenera which from what I can tell is the dialogue equivalent of taking a shot in X-COM aka something that a lot of people dislike.

It's more like the former tbh.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by Dr_Sarcy:

Originally posted by Sajah:

Just be glad they didn't FULLY implement the numenera system then... because in the pnp version, those stats are also your HP (there is no HP bar, when you take damage it goes off might, then speed and last intellect).

Also you didn't grasp the concept in entirety. Because yes at lv1 you'll use stat points for many checks, but with levels you get what they call the Edge. Edge is basically a stat reduction. Like if a check cost 1 point of intellect and you have 1 Intellect edge, that check is free, always, anytime.

So when you advance your character and spec him in some stats, you'll be able to use skills and do checks without using your stats.

Of course I grasp the system - it's remarkably simple. With enough levels, I suppose Edge will functionally negate this entirely. Hopefully.

Essentially that is saying "this system isn't that bad because eventually you won't have to deal with it", and "it could be worse". Both of which seem to support my argument that this is a poor system.

It's one of those systems that works better in the tabletop than in a video game. That being said; there might be some cyphers you can buy around Sagus Cliffs that restore points to your pools. I know I've seen some that restore points to your Intellect Pool.

Speaking of; one thing you should really do is stop looking at your pools as stats and instead as a resource - their total has no innate impact on how easy or hard a dice roll is (so a Difficulty 3 Intellect test needs a d20 roll of a 9 to succeed, regardless of whether your Intellect Pool's max is 13 or 2) so its hard to really claim that they're a statistic like, say, Intellect in Pillars of Eternity.

[Drake]

It's better to just see them as mana pools (since we got an HP bar) and accept that in dialogs you're not using standard dialog checks but real skills.

I do hope they give a an ironman mode at release, so that you can have a mode where you can't be tempted by savescuming.

[Boomer simpson]

I would actually like an Ironman mode just to force myself to experience what it would really be like to play that way but I have a very strong feeling that there won't be anything in the options that we haven't already seen in Early Access.

[chebur2012]

oh, god, not the savescumming. Will there be an itonman mode then?