Character "tier"/balance

[Khalgar]

Hi everyone, I wanted to start a thread to really discusse global character balance, as mana uptdate changed pretty much everything and there are only official class-specific threads. I'll start by making a character "tier" list -this is only my opinion ofc, I've complete destruction with viking, marksman, paladin, samurai, necro, and agony with everyone else except pirate -I don't like her and don't really know her, so I will not comment her-.
!!! This is a HIGH LEVEL tier list. Some characters are way stronger than others at low lvls but it can change a lot at high level, which is what matters imo as going from 1 to 150 only takes a few hours now.!!!

Tier 1 : (the gods)

1. Demonspawn : Really meh global damage, pretty weak (armor capped at 75% without any movement skill, only helped a bit by the crowd control provided by impale)...so why is he n°1?=>because manapocalypse; He litterally has a "I win button". It's an insta-oneshot of everything on screen (at least until agony) every 30s... nothing less. (I put him tier 1 not to make too much tiers, but he would need his own "broken" tier atm).

2. Samurai : It seems nobody plays him, and I must admit his playstyle isn't the funniest, but he is REALLY strong since the mana uptdate. You have a full-ranged character with melee stats and unlimited crowd-control (in aoe : ice enchant). Pretty much zero weakness, super-safe, decent dps (not the best though, but still very decent), full ranged, he has even a movement skill comparable to marksman-amazon's jump (vorpal enchant). I have the easiest time farming destruction with him by far.

Tier 2 : (very safe and strong dps)

1 .Paladin : Really safe (divine shield, holy nova) mid-range character with a very decent dps, what else? He has no real weakness, except taking a bit more risks than the other "strong" charactersbeing mid-range, but that's easily balanced by divine shield.

2. Amazone : Very high ranged dps with an awesome movement skill (jump) with an invicibility frame to get out of danger, making her a really safe character. The only thing that will really kill you is insta-oneshot teleport monsters (sometimes you'll have enough time to dodge them, sometimes -like abominations of act VI for example- they hit instantly)

=2. Marksman : Pretty much the same as the Amazone, high dps safe (due to his jump) ranged character, except he has less full-range dps but way more mid-range dps (due to the grenades).

3. Redneck : energy Redneck is really srong now. He benefits from the melee armor cap while being full-ranged. His dps is nothing comparable with Marksman or Amazone's dps, but it is balanced by the 40% extra damage mitigation.

Tier 3 : (safe OR good dps)

1. Pyromancer : he has always been a good but not OP character (I would say balanced), and it didn't change with the mana uptdate. e has a very good dps, but is really weak. Pretty much what you can expect from a pyro ^^

2. Necromancer : He was Tier 2, at the same place as Amazone and Marksman imo (at high level, but he was very OP at low levels when your minions are actually efficient), but today's nerf really lowered his dps a lot. With a non-minion build, he is Tier 3 now. I didn't try a minion-based build though (as I don't want to farm all act 7 again due to the talent reset bug x), but if minions scaling with difficulty makes them actually useful, he might still be very strong (probably still Tier 2), so I'll let ppl who tried it comment him.

2. Nomad : Not as bad as he used to be, but still not very good either for destruction. Actually, he is awesome as long as melee is a viable option...which isn't in destruction, especially without any crowd control ability. He can be played full-ranged though, but his dps is pretty bad if you do so. In the end, you have either a very unsafe high dps melee character, or a really safe (especially with vanish) ranged character, but with a bad dps.

Tier 4 : (not very safe and/or low dps)

1. Demon hunter : There is just nothing that good about the demon hunter (except his core mechanic is fun, and the character is badass ^^), but nothing that bad either. He is just "meh"; Ranged, he, has a pretty "meh" dps (way lower than a energy redneck or a samurai...which are supposed to be melee characters at the first place x), but he is really safe with both melee armor cap and a movement skill to get out of trouble. Melee, his dps is better (not quite as good as viking's dps though) but...forget about it in agony, full melee just isn't really viable (way too much one-shot attacks that are almost impossible to see coming if you are melee).

2. Nomad : Not as bad as he used to be, but still not very good either for destruction. Actually, he is awesome as long as melee is a viable option...which isn't in destruction, especially without any crowd control ability. He can be played full-ranged though, but his dps is pretty bad if you do so. In the end, you have either a very unsafe high dps melee character (way higher than demon hunter's dps), or a really safe (especially with vanish) ranged character, but with a bad dps.

Tier 5 : badass, very good dps but...YOLO suicidal x)

1. Viking : Actually, the viking isn't inherently bad. He is even a very good character until destruction. His dps is really good. The issue lies in his survivability : he is the only character than cannot go ranged (or even mid-range) -shockwave spamming isn't an option unless you want to spend 15min/boss-, and he has nothing to balance it since zeal nerf (note that zeal healing had been introduced at the first place precisely because the viking was the worst character due to its melee restriction, so, basically, we're back at this point, except his dps is now fine). Stonesking is supposed to fulfill this role, but as gear makes everyone over-capped now, it is absolutely useless. It is still possible to farm destruction with him, ofc (I do it), but it is so much harder than whith a good character (playing paladin or marksman after viking feels like playing the game is easy mode, and I'm not even talking about samurai x)

Pirate : ?, I don't know her.

Sorry for the long post ^^ what do you guys think about the different characters?

[ultradmb]

i think Nomand is the worst , i am 130 with him and only use sandstorm what insta kill everything and dont use every other skill because they suck make nearly no damage.
Sandstorm can insta kill everything i trigger all waves and run through them with sandstorm
but all other skills are so weak.

[- Tiix -]

Demonslayer Tier 4?
My Demonslayer Stats
10k Strength = About 50k DMG
18k Mana
85 % DMG Reduction on Destruction
205k HP
4000 Attackspeed
Dealing 107k Crit ( almost every hit is crit ) on Destruction, so everything is like 1 hit.

[Khalgar]

VI の投稿を引用：

Demonslayer Tier 4?
My Demonslayer Stats
10k Strength = About 50k DMG
18k Mana
85 % DMG Reduction on Destruction
205k HP
4000 Attackspeed
Dealing 107k Crit ( almost every hit is crit ) on Destruction, so everything is like 1 hit.

What have your stats to do with character balance? Yes, demonslayer isn't really good atm, with OP gear ofc any character can do well but this isn't the topic here.

Ultradmb の投稿を引用：

i think Nomand is the worst , i am 130 with him and only use sandstorm what insta kill everything and dont use every other skill because they suck make nearly no damage.
Sandstorm can insta kill everything i trigger all waves and run through them with sandstorm
but all other skills are so weak.

Clearly yes, nomad is amongst the worst characters. I just think viking is worse atm, because, as you said, sandstorm is awesome if you can go melee so the nomad is at least as good as the viking in melee range, but he can also play (although not very effectively) ranged, or at least mid-range, which the viking cannot.

[- Tiix -]

Khalgar の投稿を引用：

VI の投稿を引用：

Demonslayer Tier 4?
My Demonslayer Stats
10k Strength = About 50k DMG
18k Mana
85 % DMG Reduction on Destruction
205k HP
4000 Attackspeed
Dealing 107k Crit ( almost every hit is crit ) on Destruction, so everything is like 1 hit.

What have your stats to do with character balance? Yes, demonslayer isn't really good atm, with OP gear ofc any character can do well but this isn't the topic here.

Ultradmb の投稿を引用：

i think Nomand is the worst , i am 130 with him and only use sandstorm what insta kill everything and dont use every other skill because they suck make nearly no damage.
Sandstorm can insta kill everything i trigger all waves and run through them with sandstorm
but all other skills are so weak.

Clearly yes, nomad is amongst the worst characters. I just think viking is worse atm, because, as you said, sandstorm is awesome if you can go melee so the nomad is at least as good as the viking in melee range, but he can also play (although not very effectively) ranged, or at least mid-range, which the viking cannot.

Because u say his dmg is meh and u cant only meele due to the 1 shot attacks, first i played ranged now i play only meele because i can hit much more enemies with meele and still dont die due to the lifesteal and my hp.

[Khalgar]

I thought it was obvious I was talking about characters with "normal" gear for destruction (with such a gear, you must be farming wormhole 40-50, so "normal" destruction is like normal mode at this point (I do the same with my viking, but that doesn't mean the viking is good on itself).
ps : but ok, I understand your point

[totoff]

Hello, nice write up, Im curious in what skill did you max on your samurai please

[Johnny Bravo]

When I play alone, i play with Marksman or Amazons, but when my friend come here I play with the paladin (best to play multiplayer on/offline) and he with the RedNeck Because is the most Badass to him (and to me too, but i don't liked to play him when i tried)

[Khalgar]

le ptit toff の投稿を引用：

Hello, nice write up, Im curious in what skill did you max on your samurai please

Lightning, ice, zen wind and the final points in focus (and 1 point in everything else to benefit from+all talents ofc-especially in vorpal asap to get out of trouble easily-)

[Nito]

Nomad must be worst tier.. why? Cause Nomad have so many bugs.
Let me explain:
4th skill don't work-enemys still cast skills and hit u.....it must be some kind of stealth skill (relay on description) but this skill just make mobs move weird. Also do not do any dmg.
Traveler passive can be rly usefull if....this skill can affect skills like scimitars. Useless skill when you play on agony or destruction.
Eye of Ra just don't work. Even animation miss sometimes and hit the ground.
Ruprute passive wich must make enemys bleed and slow....also don't work.

Belive me. I'm a 150 lvl Nomad (ye i'm crazy) near to hero lvl 1. I did it only for challenge. When i try to do this it hurt me so much. Feel like i'm masochist now.

[Nito]

Khalgar の投稿を引用：

I thought it was obvious I was talking about characters with "normal" gear for destruction (with such a gear, you must be farming wormhole 40-50, so "normal" destruction is like normal mode at this point (I do the same with my viking, but that doesn't mean the viking is good on itself).
ps : but ok, I understand your point

Redneck tear 2..... why? And what u max for him? Idk cause i try him and it looks like he have rly bad start.

[Nito]

Also Amazon (with normal gear) have a rly bad time when fight with bosses.

[Khalgar]

Nito の投稿を引用：

Khalgar の投稿を引用：

I thought it was obvious I was talking about characters with "normal" gear for destruction (with such a gear, you must be farming wormhole 40-50, so "normal" destruction is like normal mode at this point (I do the same with my viking, but that doesn't mean the viking is good on itself).
ps : but ok, I understand your point

Redneck tear 2..... why? And what u max for him? Idk cause i try him and it looks like he have rly bad start.

Fire tire, molotov, picjup raid and put the remaining points in moonshine madness (or max madness and not raid if you're not capped in AS). Yes, redneck is not that great at the start, but that's mostly because most of his damage come from fire tire which only shines when maxed.

As for amazone, I've not done destruction with her yet but I don't see why she would have a hard time with bosses, why do you think so?

[ultradmb]

additional to my first post about the nomand, the skill flying scimitar is realy worse.
for the people that dont belive try it out in dungeons , crypta or small passages, it dont work.
they dissapears because they cant go trought walls and have big hitboxes disappers instantly

i wrote bug reports and posted it here in the steam forum but i think its game design.

ps:i want show off something logging in an saw my equipment got nerved, i lost every
+all tallents stats on my equipment nice...

[Nito]

Khalgar の投稿を引用：

Nito の投稿を引用：

Redneck tear 2..... why? And what u max for him? Idk cause i try him and it looks like he have rly bad start.

Fire tire, molotov, picjup raid and put the remaining points in moonshine madness (or max madness and not raid if you're not capped in AS). Yes, redneck is not that great at the start, but that's mostly because most of his damage come from fire tire which only shines when maxed.

As for amazone, I've not done destruction with her yet but I don't see why she would have a hard time with bosses, why do you think so?

Idk....What u max as Amazon? I know Amazin is great as a huge group killer. But kinda weak as a boss killer.

[Nito]

Ultradmb の投稿を引用：

additional to my first post about the nomand, the skill flying scimitar is realy worse.
for the people that dont belive try it out in dungeons , crypta or small passages, it dont work.
they dissapears because they cant go trought walls and have big hitboxes disappers instantly

i wrote bug reports and posted it here in the steam forum but i think its game design.

ps:i want show off something logging in an saw my equipment got nerved, i lost every
+all tallents stats on my equipment nice...

They need rework him....Even with all fixes his kit pretty bad.