Archer terribly OP?

[TaxFreePwnage]

I have played many many MANY roguelike, rpg style, over the top shooters. Everything from the OLD OLD Diablo 1, all thru current games, even the current 8-bit remakes of dungeon crawlers. I'm always looking towards OP skills, OP attacks, and the ability to escape basically any situation.

Firstly, any class that can get multishot AND critical strike, makes it already a step above everybody else.

Ranged? Even more so.

Oh, deployable turrets that you can hide behind and act as a temporary shield while you blast away? Double the pwn.

Oh you get 2 of those? Triple the pwn.

Oh, and you can increase your damage AND attack speed as a "timed bonus" PER ATTACK?! Wtf, why play as anything else? Necromancer is a close second with his infinite army of death, but this? Just come on..... this is like cheating.

Took a lvl 5 archer all the way to 28 in 1 run (obviously relics helped), but still.... I have tried 6 classes so far, and none of them have come even CLOSE to this deep-level survivability.

[Läskeinäijä]

yeah i agree, just not sure what i should do about it without making people rage :D

Could lower the HP drastically

[Kazul890]

Those turrets are good early game but you might find later that turrets can be like butter. Personally I feel like Nomad can be OP seeing as it has I believe it's wind and sand along with his invisibility skill. Multishot just gives 3 extra projectiles that seem to only proc critical hit and not the other % chance skills individually. Also your base damage is lowered and it takes more STR to add more damage compared to other classes. Crit can only take you so far and those arrows do not pierce or do splash damage (I could be wrong but I never noticed either of those). It is a good class though I won't deny it. I am just saying the class is still pretty balanced.

[Läskeinäijä]

i would say marksman is one of the easiest to beat normal with, but not sure about hell etc.

[Kazul890]

I agree with that. Marksman has an OP advantage early game especially with the turrets to block hoards while they recover.....Again though....I've seen later difficulties those turrets fail and its better to abandon the turret project :\ The enemies burn right through them and you are better off doing a % chance skill instead of wasting it on turrets :(. I would like to see some rebalancing on that if possible but if not its not a big deal. Always seems like in the end the best thing you can do is swing like mad and RUN!

[TaxFreePwnage]

Honestly it's not the HP that I have a problem with. Relics reguardless of class usually help on the HP side of the game.

One thing that could help balance the Archer would be making the multishot skill point investment much steeper (getting 4 arrows is easy easy easy), and after that, I don't usually care to invest further to try and get more arrows (is there even 5 arrows? I took it to 10 points, but reset after). The damage bonus that comes from investing extra points FAR outweighs the benefits lvl 30-40+, when enemies get into the 2-5k+ HP range. At that point you're more relying on skills and relics picked up to help assist in your damage.

One of the best uses I have personally seen in other games of implimenting a multishot is to take the original damage, and break it in a % of the original. So if 1 arrow = 100 damage, then 2 arrows @ skill lvl ? = 60 damage per arrow. You get more bang for your buck, but less on a single target (if only one arrow hits). This has yet another breaking point at 3 arrows, and 4 arrows still (or even more arrows?), but as long as you are close (making it a risk/reward type of play), then the archer can be VERY effective, but risks certain death.

One option that that I think could be a great improvement (just like the archer) is with the multishot tower, to make it start out shooting 1 arrow, and upgrading (just like the archer does) with further stat points invested makes it shoot more arrows. Not only would this want the player to push for higher damage, but also to push for higher HP on the "decoy" turret.

I have no comments of the single-shot turret, as for me it is a meat shield with just 1 point into it, i lay it next to a trap and let enemies sit and smash on it as the traps wreck them hard (about x10 the damage the turret does).

I hope this helps the devs, I love the game you made and I only look to give constructive criticism that can futher help this game grow and get a bigger fan base.

Devs I hope you can give me a detailed response so that I can give you even more in depth personal experience to such a wonderful game.


KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! I LOVE THE GAME SO FAR! I know it's only going to get better!

[Kazul890]

Originally posted by TaxFreePwnage:

One option that that I think could be a great improvement (just like the archer) is with the multishot tower, to make it start out shooting 1 arrow, and upgrading (just like the archer does) with further stat points invested makes it shoot more arrows. Not only would this want the player to push for higher damage, but also to push for higher HP on the "decoy" turret.

In regards to that the normal turret buffs the multi turret if you read it. To get the best turret you need to level both to max.

[Gref]

PvM/10

Bring other classes up to the Marksman's level if something has to be done.

[TaxFreePwnage]

Honestly my ideas are more of a "invest your points here vs somewhere else" as a skill build. I know alot of people tend to push the Critical Strike over anything else, but if they knew they had to spend an extra "3" or "7" points to hit those benchmark points to GET those extra arrows, it forcers a player to rebuild their skill tree in a much more rebalanced fashion.

[O.G Willikers]

Originally posted by Panicci:

yeah i agree, just not sure what i should do about it without making people rage :D

Could lower the HP drastically

This would be a very very bad idea IMO. I have spent most of my time in HS as an Archer and honestly I just quit out of frustration with the balance. Its immensly frustrating that I can be on a good run with tons and tons of HP gained from having Lucky Charm and Da Box, way over leveled for the content I am playing....and yet still get killed in all of 2 or 3 seconds because of a lightining mod/mob or a cheap fire trap hiding behind a tree.

I really really like your game, but the balance is off. Some toons feel over powered, some underpowered. Some items are godly, others hardly do anything. I know this is the last thing any developer wants to hear, but honestly I would rework balance from the ground up. Just start compltly over as opposed to trying to balance out so many working parts(which is difficult enough to do).

Personally I think I would reduce the number of potions that drop but make them slightly more effective. Make the stats you gain from leveling up worth MUCH more then they are right now(its silly that I end a game with + 800 to all stats yet iv only gained 160 from leveling!). Adjust various things about the different classes to even things out(archer moves fast and shoots fast but has the games worst damage reduction and starting life and receives less from invested points).

Like I said I enjoyed the hell out of your game....but at the same time I am at the point where I am having to forget it exists for a bit because I cant take one more cheap damned death from a fire trap or lighting enemy. Its just immensly frustrating that nothing hurts and i feel like an unstoppable god...then BAM im dead and 2 hours of play time gone to a game over I dont feel was my fault. Frustration aside, thanks for the work you have put into the game and continue to!

Edit - The suggestion to make Multi shot a steeper investment is a good one. I should also add my Marksman is about level 85. I didnt have that hard of a time cruising through Normal, but even just Nightmare I find I keep having long runs ended by cheap cheap deaths. I LOATHE fire traps!

[Kazul890]

You make some valid points but at the same time I don't think they should rebalance from the ground up. Some items are meant to be OP and under powered since the game is a rogue-like. Some runs you get basic......not the best relics and others OH MY GOD if you get the good book or amputation kit that is a very good start for kiting enemies to death. Or you could be talking about stuff such as I think its Damians Necklace that adds 200 STR -50 DEF and SPD or even the Frostmourn which in itself is extremely OP starting the game. Yes those are OP but necessary and I agree with the potion problem. Some games they seem too frequent but I wouldn't lower the amount. Instead I would probably make it give +5 instead of +10 and that wouldn't be so bad at all. Also I would like to add since the game creators love The Binding of Isaac (also my FAVORITE rogue like of all time) I would probably do what BoI did and have a random set of potions instead of all of them possible to drop in 1 play through. You could end up with 6 negative and 3 positive potions making it quite nice and frustrating as per the rogue-like genre. The classes aren't balanced I agree with you. I LOVE the idea of the necromancer and I would kill for a revamp on him. Without his minions he is trash early game......as the game progresses his minions are trash to begin with just very temporary meat shields......You can't raise your skeletons without a body which SUCKS for entering dungeons (I personally believe they should be able to enter the dungeon with necromancer)..... I would say necromancer is the most underpowered class personally but then again I haven't played him too much due to the minion problem I see. The +800 into every stat sounds far-fetched but I honestly don't think it is. When you move up to even the new inferno difficulty if you do not have the +800 in all stats that could cost you the match since well......it is inferno difficulty. Normal difficulty it may seem too damn hard to start out but when you reach a certain level and unlock your skills and get a decent combination of relics you can pwn everything in your path no problem but as the difficulties progress that might not be the case anymore.

Edit: Also to the dev I agree with MSIMagus about the lowering Marksman health thing... That would only affect early game possibly only act 1 for experienced players and would prove to be pointless. Everyone would pump their points into stamina until they are at a satisfactory HP level and the nerf would officially be null and void. Nerf it too hard to get around that and you may have made it a dodging class for experienced players or for new people make the class unplayable as starting fresh can be very very brutal.

[O.G Willikers]

I would point out with potions that they are not just a balance issue but for me personally an entertainment issue. I feel like 10% of my time playing is just potion related stuff. Having them drop less often would mean both that they are easier to balance, but also that more time is spent actually playing the game vs messing with them.

As for the fact that a lot of this game is supposed to be random and how you get face smashing runs and runs you have your face smashed in....i get it...i just dont agree the balance is anywhere near right. I put so many hours into BoI and yes sometimes I had an amazing run where I got just the perfect combo of items and other times I got screwed. However, I never felt like even on a run where I found my dream combos that I compltly steam rolled, nor did I ever feel so screwed I couldnt kill Mom. I just do not feel that Hero Siege has that type of balance. I mean its too wide of a margin that you can find several items increasing your stats by +40 or a measly + 5. That is just way way way too large of a range.

[Kazul890]

I hear you but I definately disagree with you on the BoI point.... I've had runs where I decimated before reaching mom or even on map 1 (finding Dr Fetus in a hidden wall its GG). Relic values might need a small rework as some are 100% useless but then again that is intended such as.......the dreaded sock.......especially when you spend your crystals to open a crystal chest and find that damn thing -.- If potions are a problem I guess do a "challenge" run and do not touch a single potion and its no problem except......when you run into them on the ground and possibly die because you are stunned for that second or so......I've had that happened I almost cried.... I enjoy the entertainment value of the potions. Every time I get a new potion to me its almost like finding a miniature devil statue. Once you identify them all of course you'll kind of lose that entertainment value though.......

[meioh]

This is all early game though. Turrets melt in less than a second later on, and so do necro summons. Necro summons actually make the class terrible, i just quit mine once i saw what it looked like late game: Basically a bunch of weak and unreliable passive procs, at that point you might as well be playing Relicmancer - no summons whatsoever.

[Kazul890]

Originally posted by Meioh:

This is all early game though. Turrets melt in less than a second later on, and so do necro summons. Necro summons actually make the class terrible, i just quit mine once i saw what it looked like late game: Basically a bunch of weak and unreliable passive procs, at that point you might as well be playing Relicmancer - no summons whatsoever.

I guess that is kind of what I said (not being condescending or sarcastic). Late game is when you see many active skills turn to trash especially those with an HP bar and usually you want to turn to passive skills that add a % chance to do x. However many of those are only good if you stack STR and you would need an insane rate to be worth a damn sometimes so you resort back to.... http://youtu.be/eN7dYDYfvVg and running like hell.

[Läskeinäijä]

Tax that is an awesome idea! Will definitely work on the multishot :)